Question for any High Elf players.

[vincegamer]

Are shields worthwhile?
I\'m painting up an army I\'d someday like to play and considering the WYSIWYG, should I put shields on my spearmen and/or archers?

 

[supervike]

Since the spearmen would most likely see close combat, I think the extra defense the shield gets you would be worth it, point wise.

The archers, on the other hand, would be better served staying away from close combat. I don\'t think spending the extra points on shields would benefit them in the long run. Plus, if you need to count on the archers in hand to hand, you\'ve probably already lost....lol

OF course, I am just a novice at this game, not the surpreme tactician I\'m sure others are.

Although, I have NEVER lost a game of Warhammer.

Now, speaking just for the visual models sake, the spearmen would look naked without the shields, the archers would look goofy with them, unless you could strap them across their backs somehow.

 

[vincegamer]

So you think these guys look naked?

 

[supervike]

hmmm.

I stand (or sit) corrected.

Those do not look naked at all, except for the dancing bear. Is he bear naked?lol

Ok, for MODEL sake, I can see how a shield would end up hiding all your hard work there. They could have a shield with the peace sign or something to keep them in theme.

I still say they should have a shield for GAMING purposes....:]

 

[vincegamer]

This weekend I pulled out the book again and I see I had some things wrong.

Spearmen don\'t get a choice. They have a shield.

Archers don\'t get a choice. They don\'t have a shield.

Seaguard get the choice of shield or no shield. (seaguard are basically a combination of archer and spearman for slightly higher cost).

Archers get the choice of armor or no armor. As it doesn\'t affect the models I dont need an answer right now, but for gaming purposes is the armor worth the extra points?

I was puzzling for a long time over why charioteers get a spear and a handweapon, but no shield. After all, chariots don\'t fight in ranks (the only reason for a spear)
Also, why do Spearmen get a handweapon.
Finally it hit me:
Spears aren\'t 2-handed weapons!
That means in close combat, elf spearmen can choose to get the shield saving throw -OR- get the second attack! Charioteers always get 2 attacks!

Unless there\'s an errata somewhere on this, that\'s how I plan to play it. (imagine 3 ranks of spearmen 5 wide - 20 attacks!

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

Orginal gepostet von vincegamer
This weekend I pulled out the book again and I see I had some things wrong.

Spearmen don\'t get a choice. They have a shield.

Archers don\'t get a choice. They don\'t have a shield.

Seaguard get the choice of shield or no shield. (seaguard are basically a combination of archer and spearman for slightly higher cost).

Archers get the choice of armor or no armor. As it doesn\'t affect the models I dont need an answer right now, but for gaming purposes is the armor worth the extra points?

As archers wouldn\'t get a shield as well, I\'d say no. True, you get a 6+ armour save for one (?) point extra, but that\'s the point: a one-outta-six chance the model will survive. Unless, of course, you\'re attacked by STR 4 or more, which will ignore the save. I guess you\'d be better advised to keep the archers well out of any combat. The only time the light armour would be worthwhile is if you know the enemy will employ lots of ranged fighters as well, or lots of skirmishers with ranged weapons (dark elf shadows, anyone). Ignore black powder weapons for this, as they have a built-in -1 to armour saves.

I was puzzling for a long time over why charioteers get a spear and a handweapon, but no shield. After all, chariots don\'t fight in ranks (the only reason for a spear)
Also, why do Spearmen get a handweapon.
Finally it hit me:
Spears aren\'t 2-handed weapons!
That means in close combat, elf spearmen can choose to get the shield saving throw -OR- get the second attack! Charioteers always get 2 attacks!

Unless there\'s an errata somewhere on this, that\'s how I plan to play it. (imagine 3 ranks of spearmen 5 wide - 20 attacks!

Not entirely correct, either. First off, the chariots: In the main book, there are two entries for spears: Infantry and Cavalry/ridden Monster/Chariots. While the Infatry version allows you to strike with an extra (or in the case of High Elves, two extra) rank if you didn\'t move that turn, The cavalry version \"only\" gives you a +1 STR bonus in the round the carrying model charges. Charioteers also don\'t need shields or armour, because meele involving Chariots is a bit different: The opponent needs to compare his WS with that of the crew, but has to wound against the chariots Toughness. Therefore, you use the chariots Armour (mostly 5+ or 4+), not the crew\'s. The only time this is different, is if there is a character model riding in the chariot, in which case one can choose whether to attack the chariot or the Character. Phew!

And finally (hope you\'re still with me): Hand weapons for Spearmen. These don\'t provide your spearmen with a bonus attack. The reason: As a weapon with \"special rules\", the spear falls out of the \"hand weapon\" category and as such, can\'t be used together as \"two hand weapons\" (and frankly, imagine wielding both a spear and a sword at the same time ).

\"Why the hand weapon then?\", you\'ll ask. Here\'s why: To use it instead of the spear. True, you\'ll lose the extra ranks of spears = bad. But: if you happen to attack with the spearmen, you lose those anyway. But there\'s a nice little rule that grants models fighting with hand weapon and shield a +1 to their armour save.
Count with me: Light armour, Shield, and HW/Shield combo: a 4+ armour save in close combat. Not too bad, considering you\'ll need all you can get between the enemy and your 3 Toughness
Just remember, you can\'t switch weapon combos in mid-fight, you choose your weapons when the charge occurs, then go through the fight with that.

Hope that helps.

 

[vincegamer]

Helps some but I\'m a bit more confused too.

First, why do the elf spearmen need a handweapon, when they can use a spear and shield? (all of the illustrations show just that in close combat)

Second, why would using the hand weapon cause you to lose the 2nd and 3rd rank attacks? (and where does it say you only get that if you don\'t move?)[edit- found it! but you only lose a rank, so elves that move still get 2 ranks]

Third, why do charioteers need handweapons?

p.s. I can\'t imagine wielding 2 swords, or a spear 1-handed, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s impossible.

 

[Ogrebane]

Everybody in the Warhammer world comes armed with a hand weapon. So no matter what else you have ie spear halbert you also have a hand weapon. You get that for free and free is scottish for excellent. You may then choose which weapon you use in the game. So there for you chosen chaos warriors with halbert and shield may use either HW ans SH or just HT. As for your elves I dont see a need to ever use HW and SH cause anything you need the extra save for will probably negate a 4+ anyway. But it staes in the rules that is you have a choice of weopon then whatever you choose to use then the whole unit uses that weapon (except where it states other wise as in the seaguard) So if the front rank use HW then the whole unit must use HW there fore you lose the back rank fighters.
As for armour on archers. If they are getting into hand to hand then you are in big trouble so keep em away from the fight and dont waste points putting armour on them.

 

[vincegamer]

I just don\'t see the point with elves since I can\'t find anywhere that it says you can\'t use a spear and shield, and so there is no reason ever to use the hand weapon; you get the shield save anyway.

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

Thanks Ogrebane, summed it up perfectly... And also, you lose all additional ranks when moved.

@Vince: You\'re perfectly right, you can use shield and spear together. But!

In the rulebook, right on the first page of the \"weapons\" section, it\'s made clear (I\'m paraphrasing from the German version):
\"Some Warriors carry a Hand Weapon in one hand and a Shield in the other and can so avert blows more easily, by using either the Shield or Sword for that. Any Hand Weapon is usable for that, be it sword, axe, club, pistol butt etc.

If a warrior on foot fights with a Hand Weapon and Shield, he may improve his Armour Save in Close Combat by an additional +1. E.g. if he carries a Shield, Light Armour, and a sword, his AS in CC goes up from 5+ to 4+. This works only in Close Combat, not against Wounds caused by Shooting, Magic or other circumstances.\"

So you may choose whether to strike from three ranks and have a 5+ armour save, or just with the first rank and have a 4+ armour save. So, if you happen to attack and it seems probable you\'ll be able to win with 5-6 attacks a phase, why not minimize your losses by slightly improving your save? If, on the other hand, the combat\'s likely to go on for more than one round, stick to the spears... 15-16 attacks are worth it.

 

[vincegamer]

I\'ll try to get on this weekend with the book in hand.
I read yesterday \"any unit that moves loses one rank of attacks\".
I\'ll have to look again at the rules on shields.

[edit] - okay, I looked it up. A shield does not improve your save. Using \"a handweapon and a shield\" improves your save. Handweapon is defined as any weapon not otherwise addressed in the rules and spears are otherwise addressed in the rules.

I did not find a rule that said every member of the unit uses the same weapons, just that they all carry the same weapons. In real life it would have been common (and is common among reenactors) to have shield/sword for the front rank and spears in the second rank, but I can see how that would be impractical considering the game mechanics. In the game when a soldier is killed someone from behind takes his place insead of the killer stepping over him and hitting the second rank. Can\'t have guys drawing their swords and shields and stepping up. It takes too long. So, it\'s a choice: extra attacks or better save.

As to ranks, what it exactly says in my book under fighting in ranks is that if the unit moves, the number of ranks that can engage in combat is reduced by one. Therefore, since elf spearmen fight in 3 ranks, if they move they are reduced to 2 ranks. If attacked from rear or side of course, only one rank can fight whether they moved or not.

Now I still don\'t know why chariot crew get handweapons. They don\'t get the option of a shield or another handweapon, and spears get an advantage in a charge but after that are no different from handweapons. Chariot crew never fight on foot. There is absolutely no reason for a chariot crew ever to use a handweapon.

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

I\'m gonna try and clarify using quotes from the German translation, so page numbers may be off by one or two. Also, if applicable, errata will be named.

Orginal gepostet von vincegamer
I\'ll try to get on this weekend with the book in hand.
I read yesterday \"any unit that moves loses one rank of attacks\".
I\'ll have to look again at the rules on shields.

[edit] - okay, I looked it up. A shield does not improve your save.
Wrong. Page 64, Table: \"Shield or Light Armour = 6+, Shield & Light armour = 5+\" I am pretty sure this means a shield improves saves.
Using \"a handweapon and a shield\" improves your save. Handweapon is defined as any weapon not otherwise addressed in the rules and spears are otherwise addressed in the rules.
Yes and yes. Pages 88 and 91, respectively. The 2005 errata also state that the term \"Hand Weapon means any weapon carried in one hand and without any special rules, e.g. Swords, Clubs etc.\"

I did not find a rule that said every member of the unit uses the same weapons, just that they all carry the same weapons.
Hm. Page 88, Weapons and Units: \"At the beginning of the first phase of a CC units can choose with which weapon to fight. Whatever they choose has to be used for the remainder of the fight. E.g. units with Great Weapons may choose to fight with their Swords to avoid the drawback of striking last, but then have to fight with the Swords for the remainder of the fight.\"
In real life it would have been common (and is common among reenactors) to have shield/sword for the front rank and spears in the second rank, but I can see how that would be impractical considering the game mechanics.
Exactly. However, there are certain units/weapons with different rules. The Eternal Guard of the Wood Elves for example. Their weapons count as \"2 Hand Weapons\" in the first rank, and as \"Spear\" in the second rank. But those are exceptions.
In the game when a soldier is killed someone from behind takes his place insead of the killer stepping over him and hitting the second rank. Can\'t have guys drawing their swords and shields and stepping up. It takes too long. So, it\'s a choice: extra attacks or better save.

As to ranks, what it exactly says in my book under fighting in ranks is that if the unit moves, the number of ranks that can engage in combat is reduced by one. Therefore, since elf spearmen fight in 3 ranks, if they move they are reduced to 2 ranks. If attacked from rear or side of course, only one rank can fight whether they moved or not. I stand corrected. I wasn\'t sure about the rules for High Elves with their 3-Rank fighting. Having asked my SO, she said the Army book just stated \"strike from three ranks\". So I guess what you say is entirely correct. Mea Culpa

Now I still don\'t know why chariot crew get handweapons. They don\'t get the option of a shield or another handweapon, and spears get an advantage in a charge but after that are no different from handweapons. Chariot crew never fight on foot. There is absolutely no reason for a chariot crew ever to use a handweapon. Well, the rulebook says we should assume that everyone has some kind of Hand Weapon (Hey, even Zombies, who have... well, hands...) or another, regardless of what other weapons they may have. And as long as you don\'t have to pay for it... who cares? The spear for the chariot crew is just a little bonus, as chariots usually rely on the first phase of combat (charge-->impact hits) to break the enemy. Hence a weapon that gives +1 STR in the first round only.

Phew. I really hope we got this clear now. Yep, rules lawyer, that\'s me

 

[Ogrebane]

I dont have a rule book but Godlike has summed it up very well. Jusr accept that everyone has a hand weapon and remeber its a choice if needed. In the case of chariot riders it will never be needed. In the case of the spear elves it might be needed but I have never come across a reason to use this option.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by Godlikebuthumble
Hm. Page 88, Weapons and Units: \"At the beginning of the first phase of a CC units can choose with which weapon to fight. Whatever they choose has to be used for the remainder of the fight. E.g. units with Great Weapons may choose to fight with their Swords to avoid the drawback of striking last, but then have to fight with the Swords for the remainder of the fight.\"

Where is this errata you mention?
You see, this is not how it\'s worded in my book. It is almost like this but it says \"At the beginning of the first phase of a CC soldiers can choose with which weapon to fight.
Because it does not use the word unit, I was taking that to mean each soldier.
Rereading how overkills work I was thinking it actually wouldn\'t be that hard to have your first rank using sword and shield while the back ranks used spears since the back ranks can get hit and don\'t get any saves.

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

The errata are free for download on the GW homepage. These also containg certain rule-fixes for the Army Books (point adjustments, etc.). However, I\'m not sure about the exact wording, as I downloaded the German errata. Also, the wording of units is from the German version of the rulebook. But, since that is written after the English one, it\'s pretty safe (and general consent) to treat it as \"units\".

 

[vincegamer]

Hmm. Couldn\'t find the errata though I did find a FAQ in the community forums that was somewhat helpful.
I also found some new magic items and new characters that sort of answered some of my other questions, like there\'s a hero that uses a lance and it specifies one of his special rules that he always uses the lance when he charges then the magic sword in close combat.

I assume since that\'s his special rule, the normal rule for knights is they can use lances when they charge, but then they are stuck using lances in close combat if they do.
That lends more support to the can\'t vary the ranks logic, and tells me never to give a lance to a character with a magic sword since he\'d be forbidden ever to use the lance anyway.

 

[Hoblit]

Originally posted by vincegamer
I also found some new magic items and new characters that sort of answered some of my other questions, like there\'s a hero that uses a lance and it specifies one of his special rules that he always uses the lance when he charges then the magic sword in close combat.

I assume since that\'s his special rule, the normal rule for knights is they can use lances when they charge, but then they are stuck using lances in close combat if they do.
That lends more support to the can\'t vary the ranks logic, and tells me never to give a lance to a character with a magic sword since he\'d be forbidden ever to use the lance anyway.

There is a special rule for Bretonnian characters. If they have a magic lance, they will use that for all rounds of the combat, but if they have a magic weapon and a lance, they use the lance when they charge and then switch to the magic weapon for all subsequent rounds of the combat. Something to do with them being skilled knights.

 

[vincegamer]

Aside from not getting the shield save bonus, is there any disadvantage to using lances in close combat?
I am trying to figure out what to do with my Dragon Princes.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by vincegamer
I am trying to figure out what to do with my Dragon Princes.

I suggest painting them...

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

Well, unless you use magic hand-weapons, there are pretty much no drawbacks to lances. They give you +2 STR in the CC phase in which you charge, increasing the chance that you\'ll break the enemy unit in the first round of combat. Which is what shock/heavy cavalry is about, basically. As most Knights\' only option is a basic hand-weapon anyway (w/out any boni or mali), I\'d say stick to the lances.
You still have the armour bonus for the Shield. And you don\'t get the \"HW + Shield\" bonus anyway, as that one applies only to models on foot. So, the only worthwhile to a Lance is some fine magical Weapon imho.