Stannis's favorite bodyguards

[Oakwolf]

I can't decide what unit suits him best: Stag Knights or Wardens?

Stag Knights are faster (that inch matter!) and punch much harder, but they cost a ton...and with Stannis in there, will be having a huge target mark. They can access 3 abilities on their last rank.

Wardens are super hardy with Stannis and can generate condition tokens that stannis likes for 5pts...but they are very slow.

Have you tried these?

P.S. I doubt that Sentinels are a good choice

 

[MechMage]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Stannis gives his unit Critical Blow with scales well with both the number of attack dice a unit can roll and the quality of the other keywords on that attack. Out of the box, Sentinels benefit from sundering and throw around 8 dice. Stag Knights only get 7 and they don't get Sundering until they lose a rank. Lastly to consider, Stag Knights are costly at a whooping 8 points but they don't have the durability or hitting power to justify that cost. Their text wants them to get bogged down in a prolonged engagement so they can benefit from the damage they suffer but unfortunately they don't have the staying power to actually last long once they start eating attacks from other power house units.

 

[Oakwolf]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Stannis gives his unit Critical Blow with scales well with both the number of attack dice a unit can roll and the quality of the other keywords on that attack. Out of the box, Sentinels benefit from sundering and throw around 8 dice. Stag Knights only get 7 and they don't get Sundering until they lose a rank. Lastly to consider, Stag Knights are costly at a whooping 8 points but they don't have the durability or hitting power to justify that cost. Their text wants them to get bogged down in a prolonged engagement so they can benefit from the damage they suffer but unfortunately they don't have the staying power to actually last long once they start eating attacks from other power house units.

Interesting to read for sure. With the new panic rules, it's a bit less of a problem to put a valuable attachment on a 7+ morale unit, too. I initially had discarded the sentinels a while ago due to that. You seem to doubt the value of the stag knights, i assume you wouldn't even consider the noble in there (putting them at 10pts)?

 

[MechMage]

Interesting to read for sure. With the new panic rules, it's a bit less of a problem to put a valuable attachment on a 7+ morale unit, too. I initially had discarded the sentinels a while ago due to that. You seem to doubt the value of the stag knights, i assume you wouldn't even consider the noble in there (putting them at 10pts)?

Free attacks are very powerful and dealing the unit two wounds synergizes with Stag Knights' Unwavering Fury but two points is very expensive for an attachments. The ideal opponent for Stag Knights would be a unit that can hit them hard enough to hurt them without killing them instantly but still wants to fight them instead of just sitting on an objective and relying on a passive ability for attrition. Nights Watch Veterans, Stark Sworn Swords, Thenn Warriors and Warrior's Sons all fit the bill but none of them are popular in the metas I've seen. The Stag Knights don't want to fight tough point sitters, who won't bother attacking them to begin with, or powerful alpha strikers, who have a good chance to wipe them out on the charge with the right tactics empowering them; both are very popular. All that is reasons not to take Stag Knights to begin with.
Now suppose you've decided that Stag Knights fill a niche in your list that you need filled. In the popular two list format that isn't hard to imagine. Maybe you've had trouble with a NW player or two who make heavy use of veterans or your local free folk player has discovered how to use Thenns very effectively. If you know you're facing such an opponent when you use a list, then I would consider the Stag Noble, especially if you're already planning on saving Baratheon Conviction to protect your Knights. He'll let your Knights wear through the natural resilience and healing of these problem units with additional attacks. He's also got good potential vs Lannister Halberdiers which I expect to be more popular with the 1.5 buffs since he makes the unit hit even harder when charging into them.
In conclusion, the Noble makes the Stag Knights better at what they're good at. How valuable that is depends heavily on how much you want what the Stag Knights bring.

 

[Oakwolf]

That's good piece of analysis right there; If you think you'll need Stag Knights, might as well bring he Noble to enhance their purpose. I am still a bit nervous with a 7+ morale unit harboring Stannis, but wardens are very slow.

The 1.5 Halberdiers will definitely find echo with more players now. They're custom-made to serve as Tywin's bodyguard as well.

 

[Wakeangel]

Hi all
New here so first post current baratheon list is starter set with a unit of storm crow archers played two games lost both with Stannis as my commander first against a Lannister army but my dice were really poor and second against the starks by 7 to 10 vp. In both games stannis was with my sentinels (won't be doing that again) due to them being destroyed really quickly in both game's so next time hes in with my personal favourite baratheon unit the wardens with good defensive save and moral I think it's the way to go .both games were played 1.5 rules

 

[Oakwolf]

Yeah i agree. Sentinels can be focused rather quickly, even if they do hit hard too. I really like Stannis in a Wardens unit as i stated in another thread. With Critical Blow, they get an okay-ish offense, but it's when you get Tactical Approach that things can get downright nasty. First get a unit to be weakened. When the unit attacks, use the weakened token as a vulnerable one if you need...hopefully causing the opponent to roll a 1. That will create another weakened token, which you can use for Tactical approach (3 wounds with Stannis!)

Stannis loves condition tokens, and Wardens do play into that quite well. The unit is slow, but will get to an objective and cannot be focused down that easily so they will contest objectives and can win attrition battles against alot of foes.

The Stag Knights are a weird unit, not unlike giants. They must find a way to get attacked...if they do, they can wipe a unit out.

 

[DevlinBrightblade]

New to the game too, got the Baratheon Starter set, really like the look of the models, and got 2 units of Bolton Flayed Men, Bastards Girls and a unit of Stormcrow Archers, also bought 2 additional Wardens and 1 additional Stag Knight unit..

Played 2 games so far, just straight our Free for All games, no vitory points of objectives, just last man standing, sadly lost both times first to a Lannister and then to a Free Folk, the latter was a wipe out, exasperated with really poor dice rolls, failing Panic Tests and rolling a 3 each time on the D3...ouch... Also messed up the use of the Cavalry... It's a learning curve..

 

[Oakwolf]

New to the game too, got the Baratheon Starter set, really like the look of the models, and got 2 units of Bolton Flayed Men, Bastards Girls and a unit of Stormcrow Archers, also bought 2 additional Wardens and 1 additional Stag Knight unit..

Played 2 games so far, just straight our Free for All games, no vitory points of objectives, just last man standing, sadly lost both times first to a Lannister and then to a Free Folk, the latter was a wipe out, exasperated with really poor dice rolls, failing Panic Tests and rolling a 3 each time on the D3...ouch... Also messed up the use of the Cavalry... It's a learning curve..

I think Sentinels have more omph going with Renly...although that's my bias perhaps, but he can make the unit stand a lot longer, and boost their already good offense.

 

[Mein Fury]

This is tough.

Between his Critical Blow and Unyielding abilities, and tactic cards, Stannis can function well in either a hammering role or an anivil’ing role, so ultimately I chose to place him in the Stag Knights. Here’s my thought process:

Though seemingly everyone agrees that this unit is overpriced, Stannis himself is a free attachment. While still not a great value compared to other units in the 7-9 point range, I feel Stannis’s abilities make the Stag Knights pretty workable without having to bank on their Unwavering Fury ability. 7 Critical Blow attack dice at all ranks hitting on a 3+ without having to worry about weakened tokens is pretty decent.

Now the 8 crit blow+sundering dice that the Sentinels get with him for 2 fewer points sounds more attractive, but here’s what you’re getting for the extra 2 points: consistency and endurance.

Stag Knights have a solid 5+ morale that Stannis’s abilities/cards can preserve. Then there’s “Oath of Duty”. It’s a great card for Stannis’s unit, but unfortunately requires the destruction of another. I would consider adding a 5-point unit to the army that’s faster than Wardens, whose job is to block the enemy and/or lure them out of position, hopefully do a little damage, and then die early, so that Oath of Duty can be attached to Stannis by mid-game, and isn’t wasted (Perhaps Stormcrows or Cutthroats would be good for this?).

You’ll end up with a 9 dice crit blow unit whose effectiveness can almost never be reduced. In fact, they will only get better as they take damage, unlike the Sentinels. Once you lose a rank, you’ll be adding sundering or vicious, and on top of that, you’re bound to have a few cards in your hand that will boost them even further. The unit just seems like it synergizes with the tactics deck better. It’s almost like some of the cards were drafted around this unit specifically. The designers clearly wanted them to be the star of the show, but the super high point cost has been turning people off.

While recognizing this, I’ve used them because they came in the set, are cool, and because I didn’t have any other units to sub. Deciding to place Stannis in the Stag Knights artificially made their cost palatable, but more importantly, made them really fun to play. They were my last unit on the board game 1, and with no unit left to compete with for tactics cards, they became an unyielding powerhouse of a unit, that was going to go down swinging hard on its own terms. Isn’t that exactly what the unit, the faction, and Stannis, are collectively all about?

 

[Oakwolf]

This is tough.

Between his Critical Blow and Unyielding abilities, and tactic cards, Stannis can function well in either a hammering role or an anivil’ing role, so ultimately I chose to place him in the Stag Knights. Here’s my thought process:

Though seemingly everyone agrees that this unit is overpriced, Stannis himself is a free attachment. While still not a great value compared to other units in the 7-9 point range, I feel Stannis’s abilities make the Stag Knights pretty workable without having to bank on their Unwavering Fury ability. 7 Critical Blow attack dice at all ranks hitting on a 3+ without having to worry about weakened tokens is pretty decent.

Now the 8 crit blow+sundering dice that the Sentinels get with him for 2 fewer points sounds more attractive, but here’s what you’re getting for the extra 2 points: consistency and endurance.

Stag Knights have a solid 5+ morale that Stannis’s abilities/cards can preserve. Then there’s “Oath of Duty”. It’s a great card for Stannis’s unit, but unfortunately requires the destruction of another. I would consider adding a 5-point unit to the army that’s faster than Wardens, whose job is to block the enemy and/or lure them out of position, hopefully do a little damage, and then die early, so that Oath of Duty can be attached to Stannis by mid-game, and isn’t wasted (Perhaps Stormcrows or Cutthroats would be good for this?).

You’ll end up with a 9 dice crit blow unit whose effectiveness can almost never be reduced. In fact, they will only get better as they take damage, unlike the Sentinels. Once you lose a rank, you’ll be adding sundering or vicious, and on top of that, you’re bound to have a few cards in your hand that will boost them even further. The unit just seems like it synergizes with the tactics deck better. It’s almost like some of the cards were drafted around this unit specifically. The designers clearly wanted them to be the star of the show, but the super high point cost has been turning people off.

While recognizing this, I’ve used them because they came in the set, are cool, and because I didn’t have any other units to sub. Deciding to place Stannis in the Stag Knights artificially made their cost palatable, but more importantly, made them really fun to play. They were my last unit on the board game 1, and with no unit left to compete with for tactics cards, they became an unyielding powerhouse of a unit, that was going to go down swinging hard on its own terms. Isn’t that exactly what the unit, the faction, and Stannis, are collectively all about?

That's a well thought out and articulated point of view. Thanks for the imput, i appreciate. The Stag knights offer impressive capacities...and even though there is a vocal outcry on the unit cost, i am not yet convinced that they are overpriced. My personal view for them is that their only flaw, to a lesser extent than Free Folk Giants, is that they can sometimes be stalled by other units and simply left to their device. Stannis makes them harder to stall because Critical blow means they will cripple units faster, so it's a great combination. 5+ morale and "immunity" to condition tokens is unheard of. The Stag Knight Noble serves the same purpose for 2 points. In my mind, commanders are not "free", but have probably all been balanced to 0 for ease of army building, so i don't see the noble's cost as prohibitive. In fact if we could see the real value of commanders, the cost of the Knights with Stannis would be something like 13 .

If the Knights can reach a valuable objective/position, the opponent will be in a catch 22. All this means that there is a bit of difficulty on the part of the Baratheon players to ensure that his big investment Knights pay off. They won't always make it either, but that's normal since the opponent will do its best to avoid them reaching a good position. In my opinion, they need an attachment to really shine, and Stannis is a good idea as you state.

Since it's always interesting to know what's going on from the other side of the table, my main opponent stated that she is really scared of the Knights, for many reasons. Attacking them is super dangerous when the Noble is in there, and letting them to their own device can prelude a tactical disaster (especially when buffed by Stannis cards).

I suppose that Stannis could make good use of Bolton Cutthroats for cheap and very aggressive troops, with the "bonus" of being also prone to a quick death: almost perfect for the "after a friendly unit is destroyed". I've used this army to some success here:

40pts

Wardens with Stannis (5)
Wardens with Warden Master (6)
Wardens with Warden Master (6)
Wardens with Warden Master (6)
Knights with Noble (10)
Alester Florent (4)
Shyra Errol (3)

The goal is to go and contest objectives and use the Baratheon's toughness to slowly gain the upper hand, and ultimately make a breach in the enemy line.

 

[DevlinBrightblade]

I think Sentinels have more omph going with Renly...although that's my bias perhaps, but he can make the unit stand a lot longer, and boost their already good offense.

I tried this out last night ran a 3way 40point game last man standing, Free Folk vs Neutrals vs Baratheon, Renley in with Sentinels, and you know what they were the last man standing, with some help of some tactics cards they finished off the last of the Then warriors to win the game... Was a great unit.. Unlike the Stag Nights which folded under an attack from the Bastards Girls with Bronn..

 

[Mein Fury]

I really like Stannis in a Wardens unit as i stated in another thread. With Critical Blow, they get an okay-ish offense, but it's when you get Tactical Approach that things can get downright nasty. First get a unit to be weakened. When the unit attacks, use the weakened token as a vulnerable one if you need...hopefully causing the opponent to roll a 1. That will create another weakened token, which you can use for Tactical approach (3 wounds with Stannis!)

Is this indeed how these abilities work together? Having read the card and the Warden rules, I don’t see any problem with it, but then I saw this older thread and got confused...http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?68372-Timing-of-expending-a-token

Is there a more up to date ruling/consensus on this? Sorry to bring it back up if it’s been addressed already.

 

[Oakwolf]

Is this indeed how these abilities work together? Having read the card and the Warden rules, I don’t see any problem with it, but then I saw this older thread and got confused...http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?68372-Timing-of-expending-a-token

Is there a more up to date ruling/consensus on this? Sorry to bring it back up if it’s been addressed already.

What you can't do is to use a Weakened token just created by the warhammer rule as a Vulnerable token in the same attack, but nothing prevents the spending of that token for Tactical Approach.

So the sequence i am talking about doesn't seem to need much clarification to me:

Wardens attack.
Defender saves (generating a weakened token if a 1 is rolled)
Baratheon player then expend the weakened token for more wounds.

The "engine" that it seeks to create is as follow

1. Get an enemy unit weakened (no matter how)
2. Wardens attack said unit and use the weakened token as vulnerable, increasing odds of generating a new weakened token through 1s rolled by defender
3. expend the newly created token for Tactical approach.


The reason i find Wardens great for stannis is exactly due to the fact they can generate conditions for his tactic cards.

 

[Mein Fury]

What you can't do is to use a Weakened token just created by the warhammer rule as a Vulnerable token in the same attack, but nothing prevents the spending of that token for Tactical Approach.

So the sequence i am talking about doesn't seem to need much clarification to me:

Wardens attack.
Defender saves (generating a weakened token if a 1 is rolled)
Baratheon player then expend the weakened token for more wounds.

Thanks Oakwolf, I follow your breakdown of it and this is how I understood it as well. But then reading that thread, where the supposed consensus was that the “after defense dice are rolled” trigger exists only before any re-rolls of those defense dice, was the part that confused me. In my mind, “after” meant once those dice are done being rolled, re-rolls included (they are still defense dice even though you’re re-rolling them?). So Alliser Thorne suggested that Tactical Approach couldn’t be used to expend that newly-spawned token, because the card says “after defense dice are rolled” the trigger window of which apparently having expired long before that weakened token was placed. Based on the official Baratheon FAQ, the token is placed only after the dice results are finalized. That’s in that official answer plain as day, and yet, it seems at odds with the Warhammer ability on the unit card, which says “any defense saves”. So I would want to place the token immediately as soon as I saw the first 1 rolled, but this is not the case apparently. Which would mean that your Tactical Approach tutorial above would only work if a token had already been placed on the unit before the defense dice were rolled in the first place. Not from one generated as the final results of defense rolls. See my confusion here?

 

[Oakwolf]

Thanks Oakwolf, I follow your breakdown of it and this is how I understood it as well. But then reading that thread, where the supposed consensus was that the “after defense dice are rolled” trigger exists only before any re-rolls of those defense dice, was the part that confused me. In my mind, “after” meant once those dice are done being rolled, re-rolls included (they are still defense dice even though you’re re-rolling them?). So Alliser Thorne suggested that Tactical Approach couldn’t be used to expend that newly-spawned token, because the card says “after defense dice are rolled” the trigger window of which apparently having expired long before that weakened token was placed. Based on the official Baratheon FAQ, the token is placed only after the dice results are finalized. That’s in that official answer plain as day, and yet, it seems at odds with the Warhammer ability on the unit card, which says “any defense saves”. So I would want to place the token immediately as soon as I saw the first 1 rolled, but this is not the case apparently. Which would mean that your Tactical Approach tutorial above would only work if a token had already been placed on the unit before the defense dice were rolled in the first place. Not from one generated as the final results of defense rolls. See my confusion here?

Well the FAQ specifically address the case where a player would want to use Target Opening right after Warhammer, which doesn't work because the Warhammer ability can only be declared when the dice roll has been finalized. Tactical approach has a different trigger than target opening, it's after after defense rolls.

It is true that you can only use Target Opening if there was already a weakened token before the attack (hence my sequence)

Attack Roll
(opportunity for Re-Rolls)
Defense Roll
(opportunity for Re-Rolls) - This is where Target Opening can kick in if there is already a Weakened token on the target.
Final roll results. This is where Warhammer can be used (if there is a "1" result)and Tactical Approach can be used (simultaneous effect so the active player would choose the order).

Tactical approach can't be used until the roll is final.

At least that's how i see it.

 

[Mein Fury]

Attack Roll
(opportunity for Re-Rolls)
Defense Roll
(opportunity for Re-Rolls) - This is where Target Opening can kick in if there is already a Weakened token on the target.
Final roll results. This is where Warhammer can be used (if there is a "1" result)and Tactical Approach can be used (simultaneous effect so the active player would choose the order).

Tactical approach can't be used until the roll is final...

This tracks with me, and is the way I’d want to play it. Then I just haaad to stumble upon that thread I linked, and got super confused. You have Warhammer and Tac Approach as using the same trigger, so their resolution order as you point out is decided by the active player. Got it. But the consensus in that thread was that Tactical Approach does not share a trigger with Warhammer. They say that Tac Approach can only be played immediately after the first defense dice roll (your step 2 above) before any re-rolls. That in all cases, this is the only window for Tac Approach, and thus a token would have needed to be there nearly from the beginning of the attack. Otherwise, a new token won’t show up until after all re-rolls etc. which is too late to use Tac Approach.

So it all hinges on the timing parameters of “after defense dice are rolled.” I/you would say that this is after all re-rolls; when the defense dice are settled. They say: no - it’s immediately after the first roll and that’s it. So idk what to make of it.

 

[Oakwolf]

This tracks with me, and is the way I’d want to play it. Then I just haaad to stumble upon that thread I linked, and got super confused. You have Warhammer and Tac Approach as using the same trigger, so their resolution order as you point out is decided by the active player. Got it. But the consensus in that thread was that Tactical Approach does not share a trigger with Warhammer. They say that Tac Approach can only be played immediately after the first defense dice roll (your step 2 above) before any re-rolls. That in all cases, this is the only window for Tac Approach, and thus a token would have needed to be there nearly from the beginning of the attack. Otherwise, a new token won’t show up until after all re-rolls etc. which is too late to use Tac Approach.

So it all hinges on the timing parameters of “after defense dice are rolled.” I/you would say that this is after all re-rolls; when the defense dice are settled. They say: no - it’s immediately after the first roll and that’s it. So idk what to make of it.

I'm confident enough because version 1.5 of the rulebook seems very clear to me:

Defender Rolls Defense Dice: For each Hit, the defender
will then roll 1 die. Each roll equaling or exceeding their
Defense Stat is a success and blocks 1 of the attacker’s Hits.
Additionally, each die that rolls a 6 is an automatic success
and always blocks a Hit, regardless of modifiers. A roll of 1 is
always a failure, regardless of modifiers.

• Apply Defense Die Re-rolls: If either player has effects that
would cause Defense Dice to be re-rolled, they are applied
now. [ Edit: this is where you use vulnerable condition tokens, or tactical opening]

Once the final results have been generated, any effects that trigger “After Defense Dice are rolled” may be used. [so Warhammer and Tactical Approach]

Bottom line, that thread is outdated

 

[Mein Fury]

You’re right. It’s spelled out in the rulebook pretty plainly. Thanks for pointing that out. I know the date stamps are right on it, but it’d be nice if an outdated thread was officially marked as such, or closed in some way/removed/archived so as to prevent confusion between rules editions. But I suppose had I simply gone back to that particular section in the book, I never would have asked the question and troubled you with it. So that’s on me. Thank you for going through the motions of sorting it out for me.

 

[Oakwolf]

You’re right. It’s spelled out in the rulebook pretty plainly. Thanks for pointing that out. I know the date stamps are right on it, but it’d be nice if an outdated thread was officially marked as such, or closed in some way/removed/archived so as to prevent confusion between rules editions. But I suppose had I simply gone back to that particular section in the book, I never would have asked the question and troubled you with it. So that’s on me. Thank you for going through the motions of sorting it out for me.

That's what these forums are for so no worries.

In the end it does mean that, for the purpose of resource management, the Wardens have this little extra benefit with Stannis, who seem to enjoy conditions.