Layering/Feathering - paint too thin/thick?

[richrockster]

Sorry for the relatively noob question. I've just returned to painting after a break of around 15 years, was pretty much a king of drybrush/washes. I've been watching a lot of clips from youtube, and really want to push my painting skills further.

Now I tried some feathering - not too sure on whether that's the right technique for me. Layering seems a more personal preference, and a logical step from purely drybrushing/hard edge painting.

I'm a bit confused though - it seems that the paint to layer has to be really thin. Is that right? I thin it around 6(water):1(paint) - I'm using Vallejo Game Color btw. It seems to just pool, regardless of the amount on the brush. So is the mixture too thin?

I was under the impression it has to be thin so you paint lots of layers, progressively smaller. If I'm wrong, I'd really like someone's advice. I practiced on a 28mm Roman on the cloak, and some small parts are smooth, yet others are really sketchy to say the best. Sorry for lack of pictures - I only have a crappy camera on the phone and it only takes good pics in natural daylight.

If layering is not thinned, I would assume you progressively mix the highlight colour in and paint it over a smaller area?

EDIT - I'm going to try the Brushthralls tutorial, as that seems to be the only one I've read so far that covers smoothing your mistakes, gradually working it up. Time taken is not a problem for me, perfection is.

 

[gohkm]

No, you're right - layering paint needs to be thinned. The danger is that thinning beyond a certain point will cause the paint to lose cohesion, and it'll split into its components. When you paint with a cohesion-less paint, the results tend to wind up chalky.

A good trick somebody taught me is to test it on some newspaper. Thin your paint with water, then pick some of it up with your brush. Sponge most of the paint off, so the brush is mostly dry, then draw the brush normally over the newspaper. If you can read the words underneath the paint, then it's about the right consistency.

If the paper tears, it's too wet. If you can't read it at all, or it's hard to make out the words, the paint's too thick.

But experiment and see what works best for you. Different paints lose cohesion at different dilutions. I've recently switched over to P3 paints, and they seem to take a lot of dilution before splitting, but I definitely need more experimentation here.

 

[Jericho]

I definitely find that P3 paints make glorious thin layers/washes. Very easy to work with.

Generally I don't thin paints to the 6:1 extreme you mention. I do a lot of layering and it's probably close to 50/50 territory. Rarely ever have any problems to speak of. I think one of the overlooked parts of painting is to ensure that the paint on your pallet/brush stays wet as opposed to just starting off thin. Rinsing your brush and adding another drop of water to the paint every couple of minutes will certainly keep the consistency ... well, consistent ... as you keep working.

Obviously your mileage may vary, so feel free to screw around and experiment once in a while to see what works best for you. You might benefit from thinning less, the extremely thin "juices" technique used by some of the masters is great for their purposes, but maybe not for everyday painting.

 

[UselesswizarD]

It sounds like you need to dab some of the paint off of your brush before beginning to actually paint. If the paint is pooling, then you've got too much paint on the brush. The good news is that for VGC paints you're actually thinning it out to the right consistency for feathering. With that consistency of paint you'll have extremely smooth blending with practice as well as a nice smooth finish.

gohkm, I'm going to have to try out that newspaper test.

 

[Sleipnir]

I am using VGC too, thinning those about 5 (for brighter colours) to 10 (for darker colours) parts water : 1 part colour.

One experience I would share with you is, that bright colours seems to get chalky very fast, so test the colour on a "testing-mini" first to see if it`s chalky or not. There`s nothing more bad then seeing how the colours drys to chalky renders. It`s hard to get rid of those.

Most of the time I think:"Hey, is tehre any colour of my first layer on the mini? I can`t even imagine that it has got darker / brighter", but this would be the right consistent to get very smooth results.

 

[Einion]

Now I tried some feathering - not too sure on whether that's the right technique for me. Layering seems a more personal preference...

These two techniques can be used hand in hand so it's not an either/or.

Theoretically a layer can be so thin that you don't need to worry about its edge (how high-end you want the finished result to be has a bearing here) but in practice at the edge of one layer I could often feather a bit, to help prevent any sort of hard edge, particularly on lighter colours which can be more unforgiving.

I'm a bit confused though - it seems that the paint to layer has to be really thin. Is that right? I thin it around 6(water):1(paint) - I'm using Vallejo Game Color btw. It seems to just pool, regardless of the amount on the brush. So is the mixture too thin?

No such thing as too thin really (sometimes you really will be painting with something that can only be described as dirty water).

You just need to get used to how much to unload the brush - damp, not wet is the mantra usually when layering.

I was under the impression it has to be thin so you paint lots of layers, progressively smaller.

Pretty much dead on.

I practiced on a 28mm Roman on the cloak, and some small parts are smooth, yet others are really sketchy to say the best.

Practice! It's not a technique that can be easily mastered in one or two sittings.

Lots and lots of older threads here worth reading for more tips and nuggets of info. Be sure to check the Sticky Thread of much stickyness first, then try a search for any of the key terms to find more on-topic threads to areas of particular interest.

Einion

 

[richrockster]

These two techniques can be used hand in hand so it's not an either/or.

It wasn't a statement of absolute preference of one over the other, I was merely stating a preference that layering suited my skills at present. I haven't painted for a long time, and just finding my feet with these 'new fangled' techniques.... Thanks for the info though.

I've got some mediums/agents to thin/extend drying time, so I'll play around with those. The VGC highlights ended up very chalky - bit of a bummer :dont-know:. It is a case of practise, maybe I'll do a Project log and get feedback/ideas there. Just really glad to be painting again though - it's helping me give up coffee :freaked-out:

 

[Sleipnir]

Here`s a pretty insane tutorial with a bunch of informations and pictures about blending.

There are several tips for how you ve to thin down your colour, how you could see that this is okay and how you could see if there`s still too much colour on your brush.

I recommend to read more then just the first 4 entries because on the next pages are some questiones answered by the editor with some additional advices.

Just go on with your coffee - it`s the best thing you could drink! Just black is beautiful =)

 

[Einion]

The feathering/layering comment was more of an FYI in case it didn't come across that way.

I've got some mediums/agents to thin/extend drying time, so I'll play around with those.

Careful not to add too much retarder if you have some of that - can interfere with proper drying (and often increases gloss a bit).

The VGC highlights ended up very chalky - bit of a bummer :dont-know:.

IME this is usually a case of going too light too quickly. If this might be the cause try using more intermediary colours so for example instead of dark grey - light grey you might go dark grey - medium grey - lighter grey - lightest grey.

Einion

 

[NightFallArts]

Rich,
you are correct the paint needs to be quite thin and while wet you need to pull it toward the area you want to pigment to rest at... normally you will need to have more than one layer of the paint laid down. I you are seeing pooling occur you most like have not taken off the excess paint on the brush... As Akaranseth would say "thin it" and my favorite would be "more contrast"...

 

[richrockster]

I had a little experimentation last night. Mixed up some glycerine in water (5:1), and added a drop to the paint, plus the same in water. Thinned it lovely, and was a joy to layer in, feathering away from the upper highlights. Did the 'skirt' on a Roman, and looked pretty awesome. Thinning further with water made it a great wash, I guess the glycerine holds the pigment together better when drying, as it was much smoother than with just water.

That's my mileage so far. Might finish this roman this weekend (!)

 

[prominentdementia]

Awesome Rich, this topic seems pretty helpful (That tutorial is so bookmarked). Definately get some pics!

 

[Tabris_]

Oh! I was having HUGE problems with the paint getting chalky. Now i'll try some of the ideas here.

I never said it before because i couldn't explain what was happening with the paints in english so you guys could understand. I think this was the thing really killing my minis

Where can i find glicerin? Why put a drop on the water and a drop on the paintt if they are all going together? Maybe you don't even have to make those separate. Just mix the glicerin into you water pots and smaller quantity?

 

[richrockster]

You can get glycerin in any decent food store. Look in the home bakery section usually.

I made a pot of 1part glycerin to 5 parts water. That's my additive mix. Glycerin on it's own is way too thick for just adding neat. I then have separate wells in the pallette for water, paints for blending/layering, and glycerin mix. This allows me to control what I'm using and how much of each, something I saw on the Privateer Press DVD.

Also, the advice about highlighting too quickly was awesome! Made me slow down the process, maybe my impatience after not painting for 15 years and wanting to see results quickly!

I'm learning how my paints work too - If I'd bought Citadel (GW) paints, I'd know how they thin, etc. But I changed to Vallejo, and need to learn how each paint reacts to being thinned, mixed, etc. Part of the art of painting is know how to use the medium you have. It's a learning curve.

I've ordered up some more minis, Infinity and Warmachine - Inspired by the excellent widowmaker I'd seen. Can't wait to get em!