Finecast & Wayland

[RuneBrush]

Just thought this: http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html might be interesting for those who haven't already seen it. Wayland did a visual quality control check on Finecast stock and had over 55% with visible faults so have sent it back Quite nice that they've taken the stance - who knows maybe GW might take note and look at improving the production technique.

pete.

 

[10 ball]

dear oh dear, this is shoddy. 55%! - my god:sidefrown:

 

[supervike]

I think it's universally accepted in the minatures world that GW has some serious quality control issues with this product.

I've seen on other site that the move to Finecast is akin to Rackhams move to Pre-painted garbage. In other words, a death rattle.

 

[lono]

Wayland are a really awesome company. If you can get past their website being a bit ragged everything else is great, particularly customer support. Good prices too.

I'm sure this stringent quality control check has a little to do with GW pissing them off through some of the restrictions they've put on them recently as far as selling product overseas, but fair play to them still. Totally within their rights to do this.

 

[tidoco2222]

I bought a few blisters of the finecast stuff and considering the price hike I am disgusted at the drop in quality of the figures, I only found one that I could start on without having to do some major reworking of miscast areas. Considering that for an average single figure you are expected to pay 10 GBP plus it is outrageous.
I also ordered the new Ushabti models through my local stockist and when they came in I told him I wanted to view the models first before I parted with 30 GBP for them and I am glad I did all three were terribly cast.
I'll not be buying any more finecast until (if ever) these issues are sorted out.

 

[supervike]

I cannot even understand the transition to Resin from metal.

The 'higher costs' of metal was being absorbed by the consumer, not the manufacturer, as evidence by the continual rise of their products. People were still paying premium prices.

The ONLY reason for the shift has to be bigger profit margin. If they produce the same mini, now in cheaper to make resin format, but are still charging as much (or more) than they were, the profit per mini has gone up substantially. If the idea was to just give a 'finer cast' for more discerning painters/collectors, why dump out of the metal market altogther? These could have been a premium mini, in addition to their existing line.

And, this idea would have worked as well, if the new product met expectitions. But a failure rate of anything more than 2-3% should be unheard of. 50% is utterly disgusting.

Unfortunately, (or maybe fortunately) this tact is biting them on their collective asses right now. I've seen more dyed in the wool GW fans abandoning ship than ever before. What a fiasco.

 

[noneedforaname]

Its funny how at the same time GW made lots of "interesting" announcements Corvus belli pretty much sold out there infinity rulebooks and expansions on a global level, mantic announces a sic-fi game for later this year, privateer press announces a sic-fi game for next year and it can't keep up with demand for restocks of its products.

 

[RuneBrush]

I think it's going to be very interesting to see what GW's response to this is.

Having worked in Quality Assurance for an engineering company who made train brakes before I went fully into IT there used to be a fairly simple concept for machined parts. On the job sheet it would state that every X components in a run needed to be checked, then once the run were finished you would have to do a random Y sample and mark down the number of faulty/incorrect items. This would give you a chance to fix a problem whilst you were machining it and spotting any random problems. Depending on the failure rate the next batch could have X and Y different - it went both ways too. This way somebody would pick up that a higher percentage of components were not passing and could investigate - i.e. poor material, cutter needs sharpening, machinst needs slapping... The random check was often done by a Quality Control Inspector or other person so that it's unbiased.

Sorry I've waffled a bit. With luck GW will take this on the chin and turn around the premium miniatures that they are capable of.

p.

 

[Chern Ann]

Quite aside from Wayland returning defective product, which is the norm for any business, I'm surprised they are airing dirty linen in public. I would be very upset if one of our partners, instead of trying to work with us to resolve the issue, appeared to intentionally try to humiliate us in public. At the very least, it would be a clear indication to me that they do not view the business relationship worth preserving, which seems to be ultimately extremely foolish if GW product is even 30% of Wayland's business. I'd also be terribly surprised if the distribution agreement did not include some kind of confidentiality clause concerning things like rates of discount as well as disputes of this nature. It all seems awfully unnecessary.

 

[BPI]

I assume that GW publicly referring to them as Freeloaders may have influenced that decision Chern?

Or perhaps it's a gamble based on (very recent) sales figures that have seen GW drop from X to x as a proportion of their sales? If Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames Of War, Malifaux, etc. have picked up significantly enough maybe a wargaming/miniatures store can survive without GW? You certainly manage it!

Finecast has been an easy decision for me. Regardless of quality or preference, GW have priced me out of their market. Oh well

Cheers, B.

 

[Jedrock777]

This is a tough subject. There seem to be a lot of experts out there on what it costs to manufacture this resin as apposed to the metal. Everyone seems to think that this is a cheaper process. I'd like to know where they are getting their data from. I'm not saying one way or another if it is cheaper or not, I'd just like to know why people are taking it as gospel that it is.

You also have to take into account that it is not simply the cost of the materials. I think that this may be where everyone is getting the idea that these are cheaper. Yes, I'm sure pound for pound, the resin is cheaper than the metal. However, in order to cast these resin pieces in injection molds they have to tool steel molds. Steel molds are tens of thousands of dollars. They could not simply use the same vulcanized rubber molds that they had for casting the metal molds. So I'm sure the cost of set up is amortized into the price we see.

We also have to take into account that they seem to have completely invented or engineered a new type of resin. If you have ever dropped a Forge world figure on a hard surface you know that it is very brittle and will shatter. The fine cast stuff is a bit softer and more flexible and prevents shatters.

The QC issue is well... an issue. If GW didn't do anything about it it would be a REAL issue. But if any one has ever dealt with GW before in terms of miscasts, broken figs, missing pieces etc, you know that they are MORE THAN WILLING to replace your fig NO QUESTIONS ASKED. My local Battle Bunker was having everyone open their fine cast and examine it before they left the store to make sure they were satisfied with the quality. If they weren't, they would instantly replace it and try again. Yes, I understand that it is ridiculous that so many figs are in poor shape. They need to work the bugs out of the casting process to fix this for sure. It would be inexcusable if they had a "tough luck" policy about your purchase, but they don't.

This is just me playing Devils advocate. GW has had a great deal of changes since they were became an corporate entity. They used to be a company owned by gamers run by gamers who had little care for profits. But now its a business. Now they are have to keep shareholders happy. I really hope they can find a balance between profits and keeping gamers happy.

And by the way, the first Finecast (Castellan Crowe) I purchased was absolutely fine. Maybe I'll post a pic of the painted fig.

 

[finn17]

I think a lot of retailers have tolerated GWs management decisions/pricing etc in the past because of their share of the market but I wonder if this will continue?

As an example of their strange thinking at the moment, their decision not to allow White Dwarf to be sold by WH Smiths and other newsagents is sheer craziness in my eyes.
I can see the rationale...people will have to go to their LGS to buy a copy but they seem to have missed the point that a lot of people don't have a LGS, and many people simply will not be arsed. I always used to have a look at WD when I was in Smiths and would occasionally buy one when it had something of interest in, but I guess I wont be buying any issues now.

 

[Jedrock777]

I agree. GW has made a lot of decisions that are...questionable. Non-GW store and sales make up an enormous share of the revenue generated by GW. There have been times when they look and think "Why do we have stores if they barely make us money?"

I think what it comes down to is reality and business math. In reality GW doesn'tfocus on veterans and hard core gamers because these are not their money makers. They want to recruit. GW has this nifty graph. It shows the average amount spent in a year by someone new to the hobby. It's about $800. The average amount spent in a year by someone who's been gaming for a while? $200. It takes four vets to equal the amount of money spent by one new recruit. So there's your reality and business math. They focus so hard on recruitment because this is the only way they can grow. This is an average and they use it to stress the importance of recruiting to their employees. And the longer someone is in the hobby, the less they spend. So they have to keep recruiting...

We have to remember that while our voice is loud, in the big picture, our vote is small. GW realizes that they can neglect us because they would rather have a new recruit who will spend four times as much and complain 75% less. They would like to keep everyone happy, but this is not possible. You can never keep everyone happy. So who do you think they will focus on?

 

[crystella333]

I think a lot of retailers have tolerated GWs management decisions/pricing etc in the past because of their share of the market but I wonder if this will continue?

As an example of their strange thinking at the moment, their decision not to allow White Dwarf to be sold by WH Smiths and other newsagents is sheer craziness in my eyes.
I can see the rationale...people will have to go to their LGS to buy a copy but they seem to have missed the point that a lot of people don't have a LGS, and many people simply will not be arsed. I always used to have a look at WD when I was in Smiths and would occasionally buy one when it had something of interest in, but I guess I wont be buying any issues now.

When did this happen?

 

[finn17]

When did this happen?

Good question...and one I didn't know the answer to so, a little delving tells me that it only affects WH Smith and that it should still be available from other outlets. Smiths stopped stocking it a couple of issues back.

 

[Cleezy]

Quote Originally Posted by finn17 View Post
I think a lot of retailers have tolerated GWs management decisions/pricing etc in the past because of their share of the market but I wonder if this will continue?

As an example of their strange thinking at the moment, their decision not to allow White Dwarf to be sold by WH Smiths and other newsagents is sheer craziness in my eyes.
I can see the rationale...people will have to go to their LGS to buy a copy but they seem to have missed the point that a lot of people don't have a LGS, and many people simply will not be arsed. I always used to have a look at WD when I was in Smiths and would occasionally buy one when it had something of interest in, but I guess I wont be buying any issues now.
When did this happen?

I had noticed that WH Smiths no longer seemed to have it but had no idea that it was a decision by GW, as Finn said I used to have a browse through the newest WD in WH Smiths or Tesco/ASDA then if it was gona be half decent I would buy it.

As for the finecast, the pricing is ridiculous considering the quality issues that keep getting pointed out, I enjoyed playing but the continuous price increases just make it a less viable option opposed to other hobbies and other game systems/mini companies, especially as the rules change so often and that adds even more to the cost.

 

[DVS Design]

This is a tough subject. There seem to be a lot of experts out there on what it costs to manufacture this resin as apposed to the metal. Everyone seems to think that this is a cheaper process. I'd like to know where they are getting their data from. I'm not saying one way or another if it is cheaper or not, I'd just like to know why people are taking it as gospel that it is.

You also have to take into account that it is not simply the cost of the materials. I think that this may be where everyone is getting the idea that these are cheaper. Yes, I'm sure pound for pound, the resin is cheaper than the metal. However, in order to cast these resin pieces in injection molds they have to tool steel molds. Steel molds are tens of thousands of dollars. They could not simply use the same vulcanized rubber molds that they had for casting the metal molds. So I'm sure the cost of set up is amortized into the price we see.

We also have to take into account that they seem to have completely invented or engineered a new type of resin. If you have ever dropped a Forge world figure on a hard surface you know that it is very brittle and will shatter. The fine cast stuff is a bit softer and more flexible and prevents shatters.

The QC issue is well... an issue. If GW didn't do anything about it it would be a REAL issue. But if any one has ever dealt with GW before in terms of miscasts, broken figs, missing pieces etc, you know that they are MORE THAN WILLING to replace your fig NO QUESTIONS ASKED. My local Battle Bunker was having everyone open their fine cast and examine it before they left the store to make sure they were satisfied with the quality. If they weren't, they would instantly replace it and try again. Yes, I understand that it is ridiculous that so many figs are in poor shape. They need to work the bugs out of the casting process to fix this for sure. It would be inexcusable if they had a "tough luck" policy about your purchase, but they don't.

This is just me playing Devils advocate. GW has had a great deal of changes since they were became an corporate entity. They used to be a company owned by gamers run by gamers who had little care for profits. But now its a business. Now they are have to keep shareholders happy. I really hope they can find a balance between profits and keeping gamers happy.

And by the way, the first Finecast (Castellan Crowe) I purchased was absolutely fine. Maybe I'll post a pic of the painted fig.

The process is all most the exact same. They do not use steel models like with plastics. It's just a softer silicone rubber then the Vulcanized ones and they are spin casted just like the metals. Only change is you have to make models a little more often and now metal to heat and melt instead you mix it. It is cheeper all most ever way and where it's not it's about the same.

 

[Chern Ann]

I assume that GW publicly referring to them as Freeloaders may have influenced that decision Chern?

Or perhaps it's a gamble based on (very recent) sales figures that have seen GW drop from X to x as a proportion of their sales? If Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames Of War, Malifaux, etc. have picked up significantly enough maybe a wargaming/miniatures store can survive without GW? You certainly manage it!

Finecast has been an easy decision for me. Regardless of quality or preference, GW have priced me out of their market. Oh well

Cheers, B.

I just don't understand how making it so public helps Wayland at all, unless they are making a competing product. Burnt bridges etc. Really, since they are committed to stocking Finecast, this PR nightmare will surely make it harder, i.e. GW will now easily state that the additional QC Wayland desires will necessitate them taking stock last, or some such.

 

[Jedrock777]

The process is all most the exact same. They do not use steel models like with plastics. It's just a softer silicone rubber then the Vulcanized ones and they are spin casted just like the metals. Only change is you have to make models a little more often and now metal to heat and melt instead you mix it. It is cheeper all most ever way and where it's not it's about the same.

I realize you are right about this, they aren't using steel molds. I know this because I found a tiny piece of silicone stuck to my Finecast piece! But why is it cheaper? Doesn't non-vulcanized RTV silicon degrade after 20-30 pulls?

 

[supervike]

I just don't understand how making it so public helps Wayland at all, unless they are making a competing product. Burnt bridges etc. Really, since they are committed to stocking Finecast, this PR nightmare will surely make it harder, i.e. GW will now easily state that the additional QC Wayland desires will necessitate them taking stock last, or some such.

I think you are absolutely right about this. Wayland has nothing to gain by thumbing their noses publicly at GW.

I could see if this slipped out on a forum or something, but to make that announcement really doesn't make sense.