Finecast & Wayland

[Legacy Account]

This is a tough subject. There seem to be a lot of experts out there on what it costs to manufacture this resin as apposed to the metal. Everyone seems to think that this is a cheaper process. I'd like to know where they are getting their data from. I'm not saying one way or another if it is cheaper or not, I'd just like to know why people are taking it as gospel that it is.

You also have to take into account that it is not simply the cost of the materials. I think that this may be where everyone is getting the idea that these are cheaper. Yes, I'm sure pound for pound, the resin is cheaper than the metal. However, in order to cast these resin pieces in injection molds they have to tool steel molds. Steel molds are tens of thousands of dollars. They could not simply use the same vulcanized rubber molds that they had for casting the metal molds. So I'm sure the cost of set up is amortized into the price we see.

We also have to take into account that they seem to have completely invented or engineered a new type of resin. If you have ever dropped a Forge world figure on a hard surface you know that it is very brittle and will shatter. The fine cast stuff is a bit softer and more flexible and prevents shatters.

The QC issue is well... an issue. If GW didn't do anything about it it would be a REAL issue. But if any one has ever dealt with GW before in terms of miscasts, broken figs, missing pieces etc, you know that they are MORE THAN WILLING to replace your fig NO QUESTIONS ASKED. My local Battle Bunker was having everyone open their fine cast and examine it before they left the store to make sure they were satisfied with the quality. If they weren't, they would instantly replace it and try again. Yes, I understand that it is ridiculous that so many figs are in poor shape. They need to work the bugs out of the casting process to fix this for sure. It would be inexcusable if they had a "tough luck" policy about your purchase, but they don't.

This is just me playing Devils advocate. GW has had a great deal of changes since they were became an corporate entity. They used to be a company owned by gamers run by gamers who had little care for profits. But now its a business. Now they are have to keep shareholders happy. I really hope they can find a balance between profits and keeping gamers happy.

And by the way, the first Finecast (Castellan Crowe) I purchased was absolutely fine. Maybe I'll post a pic of the painted fig.

Resin isn't just cheaper, it's massively cheaper. GW aren't using steel moulds as is evidenced by the bits of silicon still attached to FC minis coming out of aging and deteriorating moulds. Cobblers have they 'invented' anything new. They can't even manage to get their core business of moulding toy soldiers right. Do you honestly think they could invent a new polymer?!!

 

[finn17]

They can't even manage to get their core business of moulding toy soldiers right. Do you honestly think they could invent a new polymer?!!

He shoots, he scores

 

[BubbaGump]

You can still buy White Dwarf from the retailers. I just re-subbed from miniaturemarket with a 50% discount (I think I paid $50 for a year).

 

[Master of fact]

Can i just say that i am a loyal customer to Wayland Games and they have been nothing but awesome. GW finecast as some of you know how annoyed i was at my purchase IS terrible. I am onto my 4th box of sternguard and still faults. It was duly returned for my money back. It is time for GW to listen, and if the release of some cool stuff (mantic, spartan games) make them notice it cant be bad.

 

[archreptile]

Interesting topic, nice to hear both sides but I for one feel the approach taken by wayland is appropriate ultimately of greatest benefit to us, the consumers.
I've stuck with GW through thick and thin, collecting over in south africa almost from when they first started and it was totally a labour of love to get one figure shipped. Made 2 pilgrimages (they really were) to Nottingham over the years.
With discovering this site and other manufacturers I've dabbled but not much else.
Finecast has been a total disaster as far as I'm concerned, horrible casting and the loss of metal (personally I've just always preferred metal to resin) with all the points covered extensively over the last few weeks which I wont go into again and I've simply had to stop buying. Luckily there are other options but I would have loved to carry on this relationship with GW.
I think what wayland has done is helpful firstly to reassure me that what I am seeing is not isolated and not some over reaction, finecast really is just crap.
Secondly I still hope that if enough people air these grievances or better yet, just stop buying that will be felt by GW and maybe they will revise this position. If it isnt done more forcefully than usual I assure you GW will simply sweep it all under the rug with posts on the site and in WD about how absolutely amazing finecast is (I know its been covered before but jesus how underhanded is that you post everywhere about how workable it is, how much detail it has and how finely its cast when a 4 year old can see how inferior these pieces are?) Grrrrr I also cant believe I'm still angry about this...
So yeah, thanks Richard, appreciate it

 

[Avelorn]

I don't disagree with the notion that the casting quality is terrible and that it is overpriced, but the material itself is quite simply the best material I've worked with so far for miniatures.

So after returning two out of three miniatures(!) I bought and getting good replacements (I was allowed to open the blisters and eyeball each miniature up close) I've started converting and working with the material and once they fix the casting issues I can't really see myself buying a metal miniature ever again if they are also provided in this resin/plastic cast. The sharpness of details, resilience and the overall niceness to work with... it's a joy to convert!

That said I would never buy a box of these if I couldn't look inside it, the casting quality was so abysmal on the first batch so for my specific needs I'd say a failure rate of 50% doesn't cut it.

For me "professionally" it is worth the extra money because converting a miniature takes much less time and is less of a hassle. It's still overpriced though...

 

[finn17]

You can still buy White Dwarf from the retailers. I just re-subbed from miniaturemarket with a 50% discount (I think I paid $50 for a year).

I can buy WD from my GW retailer, I just can't buy it from the largest chain of newsagents in the UK.

 

[lupercal78]

i prefer forgeworld

 

[Chern Ann]

Resin isn't just cheaper, it's massively cheaper. GW aren't using steel moulds as is evidenced by the bits of silicon still attached to FC minis coming out of aging and deteriorating moulds. Cobblers have they 'invented' anything new. They can't even manage to get their core business of moulding toy soldiers right. Do you honestly think they could invent a new polymer?!!

In our experience resin is much more expensive due to its labor intensive nature. If you don't know what you're doing, it can lead to a very high reject rate; where labor is expensive and time is money, this is not a cheap process. In countries where you can afford to throw people at the problem, then it may be cheaper than spin casting metal. The advantage of resin over plastic injection is that it is good for low runs due to the much lower up front cost, and resin molds are considerably less complicated than a similar plastic injection mold, which requires much more detailed planning.

I should also note that most resin casting processes use resin that cures in a few hours, which means molds are not available and a rejected part is actually a really bad thing in terms of lost time.

 

[noneedforaname]

There is no chance whatsoever GW has switched to a more expensive process, how do you sell to the accountants that you want to spend money on new machinery to increase your costs. It wouldn't happen, they would have stuck with metal. Fast setting resins are widely available were you can pull the frame in minutes (some can be demoulded after 4-6 minutes) not hours, though they are more exothermic so have a higher tendency to getting air bubbles (were have we seen that?). In general resin casting has the same low start up costs of metal moulding, virtually the same labour costs but a vastly lower material cost as well as lower associated transport costs.

The only time labour costs rise with resin casting is when multiple pours are needed, but this is generally only seen on large/overly complex casts. GWs fail cast are all one shot pours so this is not an issue. By rotating a series of moulds it is possible to have continuos uninterrupted production.

 

[10 ball]

It would be nice to hear from GW on the forum, in response to all this.

 

[Chern Ann]

GW's experience seems to have proven that the process is indeed more expensive, due to their high rejection rate, which must be considerably higher than the rate seen in stores since I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that their internal QC destroys the majority of the product that comes out, so that we only see the least bad examples. This process may have been oversold to management as a cheaper process looking primarily at material cost and ideal situations; a belief that a process is less expensive does not necessarily mean it is true.

4-10 minutes is considerably longer than a metal spin cast, which can be removed in 2 minutes or less. This means productivity goes down considerably for the same number of workers, dropping 50 to 80% is incredibly expensive. Where some hobbyist manufacturers do not place a value on their own time and cost casting time at zero, GW is not able to do so for obvious reasons. Add to this, an increased requirement for QC personnel, and I do not think metal is so expensive that resin casting is a good solution yet for human sized figures.

Further, let's charitably assume 4 minutes per model cure; again, if this model is no good, then someone, i.e. the customer, has to pay for the lost 4 minutes + demold time + QC inspection + safe destruction (I'm assuming resin at close to 0 value). If this rate is higher than 1 in 2 (based on Wayland's report), and about 1 in 10 or 20 for a metal spin cast, you are looking realistically at best, 4 minutes x 2 + (other processes) x 2 to cast one merchantable figure, anything from 15 minutes to half an hour to produce one model sold at 15 quid or less, compared to 2.5 minutes for a spin cast figure. So, best cast scenario, Finecast is currently 5 to 6 times more expensive in terms of labor than spin casting. I doubt very much the savings in metal in a single man sized 28mm figure (estimated to about $1 or less) can possibly make up for this. Since transport costs for man sized figures will most likely be by volumetric weight, the volume of a packaged metal figure will be the major factor and likely be the same as a resin one.

There are also hidden costs in terms of worker safety when handling resins, which tend to have higher toxicity before they set, especially for very exothermic resins. It is plain that this experiment is off to a shaky start on such a large scale. I'd expect to see even more price rises when the accountants add everything up. The question would be whether or not gamers as a whole will reject the higher priced product and force a change.

I suspect the assumption was that the reject rate would be closer to metal, i.e. 1 in 10, which would probably have made resin casting a sensible thing on the prediction that metal prices would continue to rise.

 

[supervike]

I suspect the assumption was that the reject rate would be closer to metal, i.e. 1 in 10, which would probably have made resin casting a sensible thing on the prediction that metal prices would continue to rise.

Well, lets hope GW can work out the kinks. I'm assuming as they work more with this, they'll figure it out.

 

[Dragonsreach]

It would be nice to hear from GW on the forum, in response to all this.

Don't hold your breath.

Well, lets hope GW can work out the kinks. I'm assuming as they work more with this, they'll figure it out.

Wouldn't it have made far more sense in business terms to work out "any kinks" BEFORE a Mass marketing release.
The bad reception due to lack of Quality Control stikes me as a process rolled out before full testing.
Unfortunately that is something I'm far too familiar with thanks to the company which was ICL. Now refered to as F.U.jitsu.

 

[cannon_fodder]

It's awesome to see Chern Ann in here on this, and I see the logic in what has been said, but I would add the following:

It was stated that GW has a QC unit in place destroying internal failures (I would assume they do the same to any returns). As a result production drops way down and the prices go up. This would mean that the price of the failed casting is included in the price of the presentable (in someone's opinion, we know ours does not necessarily equal GWs) figures. So rather than buying a single good mini, we get a good (or semi-acceptable one) and pay for GWs in-house failures (literally).

In response to the Wayland games move:
They posted pics against GWs wishes (and stated so here) of the defects being returned. While this may have ultimately hurt them, (if I were a GW supporter, which I haven't been for some years) I would generally tend to turn to them for finecast as I would now know what they disapprove of. It would help my purchasing, and suggest they support their customers, not the companies they sell. In my opinion, if supporting the customer was the stance of GW, we would not be seeing this issue and GW would be praised. If they do lose GW though, I'm sure it'll hurt them, and they have themselves to blame

For me, as a Warmachine player, I can't understand the price hike. PPS has been in transition to Resin for a while now and seem to be doing well with it. Yes, they've had some production issues, but chose to delay the product rather than sell sub-standard items. I also wonder what the difference in material is. PPS resin is largely different than GW's, but their costs maintained themselves,despite some of the resin being updated sculpts (new molds, packaging, etc.).

I am all about loyalty (Yes, I understand the hypocrisy in the following paragraph) and haven't, in my experience, seen what I'm looking for from GW. PPS just reduced any power creep with a new edition of their rules, and maintained the equality of all armies, regardless of release date. GW is all about changing the rules, and re-inventing their armies, thereby all but necessitating new purchases. The army I bought on day 1 of Warmachine still plays well for me and everyone's rules are similar to their origins, if not almost the same. GW just wants the next thing for you to buy. I realize this thread is all about GW, but I think they can learn a lot from companies like PPS: companies that support their current player base, while looking to recruit newbies. If a newbie spends $800 a year, but a veteran stops spending their $200 a year on GW, profits will still be in the negative.

I may also be trying to support my jump to PPS after a falling out with GW, so keep that in mind.

 

[WaylandGames]

In response to the Wayland games move:
They posted pics against GWs wishes (and stated so here) of the defects being returned. While this may have ultimately hurt them, (if I were a GW supporter, which I haven't been for some years) I would generally tend to turn to them for finecast as I would now know what they disapprove of. It would help my purchasing, and suggest they support their customers, not the companies they sell. In my opinion, if supporting the customer was the stance of GW, we would not be seeing this issue and GW would be praised. If they do lose GW though, I'm sure it'll hurt them, and they have themselves to blame

Actually that isnt what we said. We said that the failure rate was communicated, and we were asked not to divulge. There were extensive communications. Invites for them to come on site to inspect. In fact a representitive was scheduled to be on site before they were aware of the issues. I out of courtesy informed them that we would wish to discuss the Finecast quality issue. And the next day the person from GW unfortunately was unable to attend. We have repeatedly asked them to visit to inspect with us. All offers ignored or declined.

 

[cannon_fodder]

I stand corrected, I apologize...
But my point still stands that this form of visibility is a bonus in my book and I hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

 

[Chern Ann]

Moved the reply to: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums.....-If-I-ran-GW&p=621844&viewfull=1#post621844 since it has more to do with Finecast now than Wayland.

 

[CarbonCopy]

It is unfortunate that GW jumped in with both feet on finecast. They should have started with a few random large-scale models (like DPs and such) and worked the bugs out instead of trying to convert everything over all at once. It's very disappointing as it could have been a really great solution to pewter as the advantages of the material are obvious... It is were not for all the miscasts.

 

[dogfacedboy uk1]

I've gone beyond the point of caring about the manufacturing process, cost or politics, if I buy something I am within my rights to expect to get it home and when I open it find it is fit for purpose. Nobody would accept it if they brought home a pack of Mr Kipling's Bakewell Tarts and found one had pink icing instead of white, two were missing cherries and one had a bite out of it would they?

Oh my god, you are dead on. As a great lover of cakes and the constant victim at work of "who ate all the pie/cake?" jokes I can tell you now that if my pack of Mr Kiplings Bakewell tarts came as you described there would be supermarket carnage on a scale never seen before.....

dfb