Kicking it up a notch.

[redarmy27]

Good morning all,

As of recently I’ve come to the conclusion and decided that I’m done gaming. I’ve never really played much but twenty or so times in the past 6/7 years that I’ve been in the hobby and have struggled with getting a good group of people to get together on a regular basis. I’m now going to focus on painting and modeling as I really enjoy that aspect of the hobby. Why rush when I can take my time on some great stuff? Aside from that, I’m sick of the negative attitudes that many of the local gamers have.

I’m looking at achieving incredibly smooth blends. Granted I do know how to blend well, but I want to be better. I want to take my blending abilities to the next step and I want to start competing in competitions. I’ve watched many of you paint over the years and the stuff you guys can do is exceptional with blending! Do you use any drying retardants or extenders? Or do you thinly layer? Any tips on this?

I use P3 paints mainly, but I do have my assortment of Vallejos. I do know how to achieve very thin layers and build up to achieve blends, but I want to know if there are better methods out there.

Secondly, I want to really step up and begin using oils in my arsenal. I’m going to expand to bigger minis aside from the 28mm, but I’ve seen the incredibly results achieved with oils even at a smaller scale. I’m just about to try oils out after seeing and reading about the exception blending results that can be achieved with oils. Any advice on this?

All the best,

Jake

 

[Einion]

I use P3 paints mainly, but I do have my assortment of Vallejos. I do know how to achieve very thin layers and build up to achieve blends, but I want to know if there are better methods out there.

The methods are various kinds of layering and wet-blending. There's plenty of info on both in existing threads without having to go into any technicalities here but to sort of summarise, wet-blending is something that's potentially useful but not always applicable (mostly workable on small areas) and you can avoid it completely without compromising results, so learning to layer well will give you the most benefit in the short term as well as overall.

Secondly, I want to really step up and begin using oils in my arsenal. I’m going to expand to bigger minis aside from the 28mm, but I’ve seen the incredibly results achieved with oils even at a smaller scale. I’m just about to try oils out after seeing and reading about the exception blending results that can be achieved with oils. Any advice on this?

Initially I'd recommend you buy artists' oils but only a very small palette to keep costs down (they can be very expensive). Some student or studio-quality oil ranges are pretty decent for some colours but it would be a good idea to get a firm appreciation for how good oils can really be in terms of pigmentation and smoothness before trying something on a lower rung.

I will also add that you don't need oils at all to paint larger; they're totally optional, not a requirement when going bigger in case you got that impression from anything you've heard or read.

Einion

 

[redarmy27]

Thanks for the reply bud. I'll keep searching around then and simply just practicing. However, do you use any drying retardants at all? I've read that can really improve the wet-blending abilities of acrylics.

I'm starting to browse oils as well, and yes they are a bit more expensive. I'm going to keep on doing some research on that as well. I guess one reason I'm looking at doing oils is that I've heard you can get much better results with them over acrylics. I'm just trying to get my painting to the next step.

*Edit*
Looking at your stuff Einion, how on earth do you get such smooth blends like that? The military historicals are amazing and are ones that I'm looking at getting into myself. Is there a big difference in quality between artist acrylics vs. P3's?

Jake

 

[Milosh]

You can do things with acrylics that you can't do with oils and the other way around. Both mediums are a must to have in your tool kit in my opinion. If I were you I would by an inexpensive set of small tube oils to mess around with and see if you actually like the medium. When I first decided to try oils I bought a cheap set of oils (24 colors) for around $12 at Hobby Lobby in the USA. They worked fine then and I still use them. I have filled in and replaced with some finer oil paints but I am not a believer that you HAVE to have them, they are just nice to have. Since you already understand blending with acrylics it will just take a little more practice to refine it to how you want it.

 

[redarmy27]

Sounds good. I'll look around for some good oils to try out. Any brands you'd recommend?

Also, aside from the run of the mill Vallejo and P3, or even GW, are there any good artist grade acrylics out there? I've heard good things about Jo Sonja matt acrylics as well as W&N Artists' Acrylics. Any thoughts?

Jake

 

[Milosh]

Jo Sonja is what I use but Vallejo is nice too. Jo's are dead matt, I love that about them. Reeves is the brand of the inexpensive oil set I bought. Are you in the US?

 

[redarmy27]

Awesome. I went to Blick Art supply tonight but they didn't have the Jo Sonja line there. They're not do matte that they look chalky are they? I'm tempted to try the W&N Artists Acrylics.

However I am intiriqued by Jo Sonja's. What colors would you recommend out of the gate? I might be shelving my "gamer" paints here pretty quick if these work out!

Yup, I'm in the USA. I'm getting incredibly anxious to paint. I'm looking at starting some of the Smart Max figures!

 

[Einion]

Thanks for the reply bud. I'll keep searching around then and simply just practicing. However, do you use any drying retardants at all? I've read that can really improve the wet-blending abilities of acrylics.

I stopped using nearly all additives with acrylics years ago (like 15-20) and generally speaking don't feel any need to bring them in again - I have a bottle of Golden retarder on my desk just under the lamp, which for all intents and purposes could be a paperweight for all I use it. Your mileage may vary.

99% of the time I thin with water only (with a little dishwashing liquid in the jar). And even with the fast drying of acrylics I'm usually reaching for the hairdryer to speed drying of one layer, rather than wishing I had more time to work with it!

I'm starting to browse oils as well, and yes they are a bit more expensive.

$30-80 for 37ml is a bit expensive? :laugh:

I'm going to keep on doing some research on that as well. I guess one reason I'm looking at doing oils is that I've heard you can get much better results with them over acrylics. I'm just trying to get my painting to the next step.

'Better' here is conditional. Other than when it's just a personal opinion (results show otherwise) it can be merely a matter of personal skillset - certain things are easier to achieve with oils, but that doesn't make the final effect better.

Just to be clear, there are certain specific things that are possible only with a slow-drying paint, but on the tiny canvas of a miniature this is far less true than on a 24"x32" painting.

Looking at your stuff Einion, how on earth do you get such smooth blends like that? The military historicals are amazing and are ones that I'm looking at getting into myself.

TVM. Other than the simple "practice, practice, practice" answer, the airbrush helps, but a lot of it boils down to many thin layers. That's why I said you don't need to wet-blend (including with oils) to achieve smooth grads.

Is there a big difference in quality between artist acrylics vs. P3's?

Huge. Hooooj. Broadly speaking there are big differences, not all in favour of the artists' acrylics though.

Cost-wise there is simply no comparison*, but the premixed colours and the reliable matt drying of hobby paints can be a definite selling point for some users. For those same people the heavy dilution that is required with many artists' acrylics (often around the consistency of toothpaste) and the sometimes varied dry finish (from very glossy in some cases to pretty matt) would obviously be reasons they'd want to steer clear of them.

*Dozens of times cheaper wouldn't be overstating it.

Awesome. I went to Blick Art supply tonight but they didn't have the Jo Sonja line there. They're not do matte that they look chalky are they?

Yep they do, they're my go-to recommendation for where to get the paint.

FWIW: one person's matt finish is another person's chalky.

Einion

 

[redarmy27]

Thanks for the reply bud. I really appreciate it. Now my only decision is try W&N Artist' Acrylic first or to use Jo Sonja first. Is there any real comparison between the two? I'm just wondering because I'll new to order Sonja's in if I want them.

Also, I have access to an airbrush and am thinking about getting it out to use it. How much airbrushing do you like to do on the mini before getting out the brush? Just basecoating or do you basecoat and use some zenthial highlighting?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm looking for the ultimate smooth!

That painting bug is really starting to hit hard now.

 

[Milosh]

dick blick http://www.dickblick.com/products/jo-sonjas-artist-acrylics/
jerrys http://search.jerrysartarama.com/search/Size-75_ml_Tube--keywords-jo_sonjas

In Jo's for flesh I use; raw sienna, burnt sienna, naples yellow (this color can get grainy with age, I'm looking for a replacement) brown madder, pthalo green, french blue, plum pink, rose pink. These colors also go into most of everything else too. I have also added almost the whole line of paints except for the very crazy colors.

I have just recently started messing with an airbrush on my larger figures and have been able to get rough highlites and shadows but with my little practice on it I still rely heavily on the brush.

 

[Einion]

Responding to previous posts first:

I'm tempted to try the W&N Artists Acrylics.

Those are very good in certain ways but they're a very different paint to Jo Sonja. And they have the varied finish I warned about above.

There are a great many options when it comes to artists' acrylics, covering a wide range of prices and quality (and qualities). If you're basically looking for matt-finish paints then you need to skip all the regular acrylic ranges, focus on matt/matte acrylics or 'acrylic gouache'. In this category you could just try JS and see how you get on with them, rather than try a bunch of them - there are maybe five or six I could suggest - and get bogged down in comparisons rather than focusing on practising and improving your painting skills.

However I am intiriqued by Jo Sonja's. What colors would you recommend out of the gate?

Palette choices are very personal, to the point that one person's must-have colour is not even on another's palette (literally).

How much mixing are you comfortable doing? Most of my stuff painted with Jo Sonja was done using only seven of them - the tester palette that I initially bought - but that's taking it too far for most people. Edit: compare to what Milosh says above.

I'll look around for some good oils to try out. Any brands you'd recommend?

Plenty! Mass-market: Gamblin, M. Graham, D-R, W&N. At the high end: Williamsburg, Blue Ridge, Vasari, Michael Harding, Rublev (in rough order going up the food chain).

Einion

 

[Einion]

In terms of a palette for JS, frankly any recommendation from someone else isn't really worth the paper it's printed on because your tastes and preferences could be so different. But I have a post on pF with a suggested starter palette so I'll just link to that; you might prefer to have far more paints than this at the end of the day, you might even need a higher number to start off.

Even though I'd be very much in favour of a smaller palette over a very large one, they are cheap enough that it wouldn't break the bank if you ended up with double the number of paints I would ever get. Just remember, the more paints you have the more interactions you need to learn and the amount of intermixed colours goes up exponentially.

Einion

 

[redarmy27]

Well I made my first purchases of paint, but they won't be here until next week. I'm pretty pumped about them as I keep reading great reviews about them. I'm honestly surprised that many more people aren't into them for painting miniatures. From what I gather the pigment quality, workability and even the blending qualities seem far superior than GW, Reaper or even P3's. Time will tell though and I'll find out for myself.

I honestly don't mind blending and creating my own mixes to be honest. Just as long as I can get as close to the desired colors as possible, which I don't think should be too much of a hassle with these paints.

How well do these dillute in your experiences?

Jake

 

[Einion]

I'm honestly surprised that many more people aren't into them for painting miniatures.

Lots more thinning required + not available in familiar colours = lots more work. Either one alone might be enough to put some people off, both together...

How well do these dillute in your experiences?

Very well. Although because of the thicker consistency you may need to alter your common mixing method (particularly if you often or usually mix by brush).

I mix most of the main colours using a painting knife, then transfer the paint to my wet palette. Some intermediate colours and on-the-spot mixes I do with a brush on the palette paper since the paint is already diluted at this point so it's easily manipulated.

Einion

 

[Milosh]

They dillute fine but some better than others. The only ones I have noticed that aren't perfect are the raw umber and burnt umber by themselves. I just use these in my flesh mix and not alone so not a problem for me so far. In my experience every other color (I have used) is really nice even dilluted to almost pure water. I forgot to mention opal as a wonderful color for brightening up skin tones. I prefer mixing my colors instead of straight from the tube and have had no problems getting the colors I desire with them. I am sure Einion will have far more insight and expertise into it than I could ever give you.

 

[RuneBrush]

Lots more thinning required + not available in familiar colours = lots more work. Either one alone might be enough to put some people off, both together...

I've been reading this thread with interest. You've hit the nail on the head for me Einion, the not familiar colours & consistency would make me want to retreat back into what I'm comfortable with - plus I have a ridiculous quantity of paint to start branching out into others. Buying a few tubes of oil paint for weathering was bad enough

 

[Einion]

I am sure Einion will have far more insight and expertise into it than I could ever give you.

As far as dilution goes I wouldn't bet on it I've only ever owned the ten tubes of it I have now! Because tube paints go so far (and keep so well) the original set might last me a decade more, so only if I want to try any other colours would I need to buy another tube before 2022.

Einion

 

[Jbickley00]

I also use artists paints, and well I'm a golden fanboy, though lascaux are creeping into my palette more and more. Einion and I disagree on the best paints (which is as much as matter of price and taste as anything else there are many good choices), but he is right about the advantages and pitfalls associated with any artists paints. Though I confess I also disagree on the relative cost difference, GW paints are hugely expensive for value, in my opinion. While it is true artists colors are more expensive, they give you more paint, so cost per ml is pretty close, if you shop right (and blick is a good place to start). One line i would consider is lascaux studio, they won't break the bank, and they dry to a beautiful satin (though I would stay away from their metals, the pigments are ground too large).
With artists paints, you have to really love the process, because they are more work. I use some additives to acrylics, mostly to deal with glazes and washes, but thinning with water works well. I have used both retarder and open acrylics and find that they don't make wet blending that much easier, but if you are learning these techniques and investment in a drying retardent is not a bad idea.
I think a wet palette is and essential tool in all painting (every golden demon winner I know uses one) but it is even more essential if you are going to use artists paints. Half the joy of using these paints for me comes from the fact that I am forced to mix and explore color. I like vallejo paints just fine, and reaper and foundry, but I found when i was using them, I got a little "paint by numbers" in my approach. Not that this is bad, but it was not fun for me. So the transition to artists colors made me think about mixing, and also forced me to learn color theory, which was probably more helpful in improving painting.
Now I am moving into oils, at least in the for of oil washes and I am again amazed I did not try this sort of thing earlier. I can match the oil's fluidity using acrylics and additives, but I cannot match the oil's ability to be taken up. Being familiar with artists brands I tend to use those (mostly williamsburg and old holland) but I am told the MIG Productions Abeitlung 502 (or somthing like that) are terrific paints. With oils more than acrylics, I would avoid the cheaper brands.
I think an airbrush is essential for a lot of reasons. One less obvious one is the ability to lay thin coats of varnish as you work on the figure without losing detail. This mean you can gloss coat before you apply a wash (or washes) and then put a matt coat over that to continue painting. Again this is just a hidden use, there are tons of interesting stuff that can be done with an airbrush.

One thing to think about when getting paints, its that red, yellow and blue are not really the primary colors you want to mix with. You want to invest in a Magenta, a Cyan, and yellow, preferebly in a non mineral pigment, and mixing these will produce much less frustrating results. I say this because its easy to see a cadmium red or an ultramarine (or cobalt) blue and be taken in by the intensity. this is a good thing, but these are not good colors to mix with.
Other than that, all I can say is explore and enjoy. There are not really a lot of wrong answers with painting, but there is a lot of trial and practice involved.

 

[Un1cornTears]

Hi redarmy! I am brand new to miniature painting, but I have been oil painting for 10 years or so.
I am enjoying using acrylics more than I have in the past, I even had some Fluid W&N acrylics on hand that work wonderfully.
Just wanted to comment that I honestly can't imagine painting minis with oil, for a few reasons...
1. The fumes. Close examination of a miniature painted with what is presumably going to need a LOT of additives to thin down (I use heavy yellow turpentine, that is pretty noxious), seems like it would be a headache.
2. The drying time. Oils are never really dry, while I can see the consistency being beautiful, the mini would be endanger of smearing if it touched anything for days. Fingerprints for sure, it is like butter.
3. The entry price. I have tons of tubes of expensive oil paints that I have accumulated over the years, but I paint 3' x 4' wood/canvas/boards etc. and they still last forever. I can't imagine purchasing enough paints to get the same range of color for such tiny figures at once. This could be one of the reasons oil paints do not come in small quantities, it is designed to lay on really thick.

But please update on anything you find...As I have plenty on hand I'd be curious to know if I could in fact paint with them. thanks!

<3rachel

 

[Dragonsreach]

@Un1cornTears: I can understand your scepticism about using oils on miniatures, especially 28mm scaled ones but painters on Larger (54mm and above) have been using Oils for years.
In fact when I started in the late 60's the modern acrylics we use today didn't exist so on the Napoleonics I screwed up I had to use oils.

As to the drying time, a lot of painters using oils on models use a drying oven. Basically a vented wooden box with a lightbulb.

If you are still dubious have a look here:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?47334-Euro-Militaire-pictures
As a lot of the figures I took pictures of are worked with Oils.