Games Workshop unveils "The Hobbit" - thoughts and first impressions.

[marjedi]

That's an interesting observation. Do you think the upsurge in minis Kickstarters is connected to GW policies?

I was wondering about the numbers. The biggest minis Kickstarter, the Reaper one, had 17,000 pledgers. How does that compare to GW sales numbers? Would that be a runaway success for a GW set, or a dismal failure, or somewhere between?

Apart from a few outliers, most of the minis Kickstarters I've seen only have a few hundred pledges. It's great to see small companies get a boost, but it doesn't seem like much of a threat to GW sales at the moment.

Individually? No, of course not.

But together it all adds up to "death by a thousand paper cuts".

 

[uglybug]

The reaper kickstarter is geared to a different audience. More for the rpg crowd and figure painters. GW is tabletop wargame and painters. Of course zombicide and the rest lean to the board game group and mini painters. As mini painters we are harsh on GW since we see other companies passing them in quality but their true audience is gamers. Near me 40k is ruling the tables, some fantasy but getting privateer press or malifaux on a regular base is rare.

 

[cannon_fodder]

@uglybug-
Aye, but there's the rub...For a long time, hated or not, GW gave us some (some) of the highest quality miniatures at 'relatively' decent prices. With a change in both aesthetics (personally, I feel as if they are changing their minis to appeal to a younger crowded, more so than before, by bringing in a 'cartoony' feel, rather than gritty (first noticed with GK termies, and evident in some of the figures here being less anatomical in places and more 'artistic)) they are driving a portion (size is still to be seen) of the painting clientele to other sources, since so many high quality companies now exist and are likely far less expensive when using KS.

No, it is not 'truly' a mainstream thing, and I really do wonder how many of these companies are saturating their consumers with the KS to the point of near zero product sales in the future (will they continue to use KS for future models to compensate to keep the flow going?).

Back on topic though, those with a love and/or high level of excitement of all things LoTR or Peter Jackson will likely snatch this set up, but those with an interest in Minis, with the desire to connect with something they've been into since childhood (both GW and Tolkien can apply here) are speaking out in disappointment over the aesthetics of this piece. Price is increasingly becoming an issue (at least in the local economy), so they are walking a fine line with that one, but as stated earlier, slightly higher to compensate for licensing can be expected, but truly becomes an issue when the price is already inflated.

Still, this is easier than doing the research and creating a unique Hobbit group using minis from multiple sources, so the ease factor may also persuade some folks.


<hmm....anyone think the Tolkien fans brought in outweigh us naysayers (as a group, to include those completely unaware of this thread)>

 

[TrystanGST]

See - I don't think the LOTR fans will be all over this. If you loved the books/movies, and want to play a game, there's always LOTR Monopoly, LOTR Risk, LOTR: The Game, etc. All with much less upfront cost requirements, both in terms of time and money. Who's really going to walk into the GW store after a midnight release of Hobbit Pt 1, and say, "Yes! I want to spend a few HUNDRED dollars to play this game I know nothing about, just because it says LOTR!"?

Will they get some buyers? Of course. But If their old LOTR line is any indication, it won't really be a mover like WFB and W40K.

Long live the underdogs!

 

[Pygmalion]

See - I don't think the LOTR fans will be all over this. If you loved the books/movies, and want to play a game, there's always LOTR Monopoly, LOTR Risk, LOTR: The Game, etc. All with much less upfront cost requirements, both in terms of time and money. Who's really going to walk into the GW store after a midnight release of Hobbit Pt 1, and say, "Yes! I want to spend a few HUNDRED dollars to play this game I know nothing about, just because it says LOTR!"?

Will they get some buyers? Of course. But If their old LOTR line is any indication, it won't really be a mover like WFB and W40K.

Long live the underdogs!

For maybe twenty years now the American comic book market has been in a slow decline. Each time a movie or a television show has come out based on some comic or other, comics fandom has buzzed about how this time it will bring new readers to comics. But it never does. Movie or TV popularity doesn't generally translate into people seeking out the source material, no matter how hopeful the fans get.

Likewise, I am not convinced that the Hobbit movie will bring more readers to The Hobbit. Niche products like miniature figures may get a boost as part of general souvenir buying, but I don't know if it will be all that much.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Niche products like miniature figures may get a boost as part of general souvenir buying, but I don't know if it will be all that much.

I think you've made a very valid point here. Souvenir buyers will buy these figures but perhaps not buy into the whole gaming experience.
(And I'll hold my hand up and say Yes I bought quite a few LOTR boxed sets while riding the Movie enthusiasm factor.)
Perhaps it'll generate a few more teenagers to succumb to the GW marketing and hobby, but it's not something I'm gonna get my knickers in a twist about.

 

[Bailey03]

I'm a big fan of the Lord of the Rings and I'm looking forward to the release of the Hobbit. But it's hard for me to find anything in this new line of minis to get excited about. There was a time back when I first got into painting that I probably would have bought some of them. But now I've seen enough other stuff to know what quality miniatures look like and there's a lot of more interesting stuff out there to paint. Take for example the White Council set. If you take away the fact that they are LOTR themed and just look at them as if they were any other mini, I think they look very dull and uninspiring. From a painters point of view not only are there better miniatures out there to paint, there are better LOTR miniatures. Knight Models makes a couple LOTR models in 70mm scale that I think look very nice. No hobbits yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the future.

View attachment 17474 View attachment 17475

I will say that GW may be able to win my over if they do a good job with Smaug. They'll price it at twice what it should be, so the sculpt and pose will have to be very good... but they could tempt me with that. As for the rest of the figures, I'll have to pass.

 

[Dragonsreach]

I will say that GW may be able to win my over if they do a good job with Smaug. They'll price it at twice what it should be, so the sculpt and pose will have to be very good... but they could tempt me with that. .

Yeah that'd be a sore temptation to me as well, but as you say It'd have to be one hellacious fine figure............

 

[Kalidane]

Woah That Boromir is incredible. I managed to never see that previously. After one glance at that I was thinking I'll pay anything to own that. That doesn't just go to the top of the shopping list; it _is_ the shopping list.

Totally agree with Bailey03 about the White Council being uninspiring from a painting perspective. Contrast those with the Game of Thrones minis. To me they are visually appealing and look challenging/appealing to paint. To be fair they seem to be 55% of the price and cast in woeful metal rather than FineCast. Oops I mean wonderful metal.

 

[moetle]

Someone say Smaug? Heck fellas i got mine a very long time ago

Back on topic. No offence to the talented people at GW, but those mini's at those prices are a reality check. Ok to be completley honest, when that page loaded and i seen the price tags.....I just laughed and laughed and laughed. Really guys? Really? None for me thanks. I just hope the movie doesn't suck.

Moe

 

[Avelorn]

I think the finecast stuff is about 50% overpriced. The white council should for example have cost £30 and would have been a nice buy at that.

Except for the huge hands...

 

[Trevor]

I bought the box set
It is actually very nice. I can certainly believe that they needed a new machine to get all the fine detail. These minis are far better than the old LOTR 1-2 piece plastics. The goblin scribe is cool.
Given this (and after looking at the nice big pics in White Dwarf) I'll probably get the new plastic orcs and trolls, in fact anything available in plastic I'll probably end up getting.
I stand by my comments about cost for the Fail... sorry, Finecast above. Far too expensive for something that will likely be covered in bubbles, missing parts and obscurred detail. I don't have the time to mess about returning a poor product. There is absolutely no excuse for this, as many manufacturers manage to produce resin minis with little to no casting problems. This is a shame, because I like the look of some of the finecast stuff.

 

[Talos63]

I'm a newcomer to CMON but an older modeller and collector. I'm wondering how everyone is feeling about the new releases for the range?

I bought the starter set only because I found an excellent retailer in the UK not constrained by the trade embargo (OzHammer). While I think the main character miniatures in the box are excellent, and all the minis look like their big screen counterparts, the box set was terribly overpriced for what was included, even at UK retail. Add to that the sneaky removal of character profiles (except those included) and points means you have to buy the hardcover Rulebook if you want the updated profiles and point values. That also devalues the box set as you are limited to playing scenarios with the included figures only, and no points battles, even though the rules for points battles are included.

My biggest concern is Finecast. I have made several purchases over the last twelve months, and at no time did I ever get a miniature that was 'fit for the purpose'. Replacements were provided, but they always had the same problems. I'm aware of the shortcomings of resin, and not afraid to do a reasonable amount of clean up to take care of minor imperfections. With all the figures I ordered, whole sections of the models were obscured by bubbling or excess resin, or missing altogether. Add to that the fact that items like banner poles bend under the weight of themselves. GW don't seem to be doing anything to resolve the casting problems, and it severely impacts on the amount of miniatures for the range that can be purchased with any confidence (plastics only).

So, how do you convince a company as large as GW that they are limiting their clientele by charging far over other manufacturers prices, and that their resin figures are not only insanely overpriced, but rubbish?

Unless the situation changes, I will only ever buy plastics, and never directly from GW to avoid their bloated Australian retail prices.

Colour me frustrated...

 

[TrystanGST]

So, how do you convince a company as large as GW that they are limiting their clientele by charging far over other manufacturers prices, and that their resin figures are not only insanely overpriced, but rubbish?

Unless the situation changes, I will only ever buy plastics, and never directly from GW to avoid their bloated Australian retail prices.

Colour me frustrated...

I don't think, at this point, that you can. The modellers/painters have been screaming about this for years, and they've ignored us while targetting a shrinking supply of fresh meat.

 

[Pygmalion]

So, how do you convince a company as large as GW that they are limiting their clientele by charging far over other manufacturers prices, and that their resin figures are not only insanely overpriced, but rubbish?

Unless the situation changes, I will only ever buy plastics, and never directly from GW to avoid their bloated Australian retail prices.

Colour me frustrated...

I don't think, at this point, that you can. The modellers/painters have been screaming about this for years, and they've ignored us while targetting a shrinking supply of fresh meat.

If you poke around the investors' section of the GW website, it's kind of revelatory. They seem totally focused on selling as many minis as possible through a strategy of isolating and targeting those individuals who buy the most minis. Their business model is available here.

What I find odd about it is how vehemently they say they are a manufacturer, not a retailer, and how they never refer to "stores" but instead to "Hobby centres." My guess is either they are pushing a "lifestyle" approach or there is some important legal distinction in the UK between stores and not-stores

If you look at the link, I also strongly recommend reading the Chairman's Preambles (to the annual financial reports, available from a link on the left of that page). They give a veiled sense of the company's ups and downs and some sense of what they think they are doing.

It seems clear that the people running the business have no interest in or sympathy with miniatures collectors except as the particular sort of client they are catering to. Their core customers are described to the shareholders pretty condescendingly as having a peculiar obsession with accumulating of hundreds of little toy soldiers. While there is a constantly repeated refrain of GW's "wonderful" minis, the "best in the world," they are treated abstractly as the generic product GW happens to produce.

Games Workshop's sales improved last year after a slump. I don't know that the "supply of fresh meat" is actually shrinking. I suspect that as long as Games Workshop keeps getting new little boys interested and buying lots and lots of their product the concerns of any number of dedicated older fans will not trouble them.

 

[TrystanGST]

If you poke around the investors' section of the GW website, it's kind of revelatory. They seem totally focused on selling as many minis as possible through a strategy of isolating and targeting those individuals who buy the most minis. Their business model is available here.

What I find odd about it is how vehemently they say they are a manufacturer, not a retailer, and how they never refer to "stores" but instead to "Hobby centres." My guess is either they are pushing a "lifestyle" approach or there is some important legal distinction in the UK between stores and not-stores

If you look at the link, I also strongly recommend reading the Chairman's Preambles (to the annual financial reports, available from a link on the left of that page). They give a veiled sense of the company's ups and downs and some sense of what they think they are doing.

It seems clear that the people running the business have no interest in or sympathy with miniatures collectors except as the particular sort of client they are catering to. Their core customers are described to the shareholders pretty condescendingly as having a peculiar obsession with accumulating of hundreds of little toy soldiers. While there is a constantly repeated refrain of GW's "wonderful" minis, the "best in the world," they are treated abstractly as the generic product GW happens to produce.

Games Workshop's sales improved last year after a slump. I don't know that the "supply of fresh meat" is actually shrinking. I suspect that as long as Games Workshop keeps getting new little boys interested and buying lots and lots of their product the concerns of any number of dedicated older fans will not trouble them.

It's no secret that they don't care about you once you've bought their stuff. I just wonder how they are going to keep drawing in fresh blood when their prices are twice what anyone else is charging. Though part of their success has been because their target audience isn't aware of "anyone else". That's going to change though.
I was at a LGS this weekend. The isle that has GW stuff makes you walk past Reaper, Infinity, Flame of War, Malifaux, Tactics Dust, and all the board games before you get to the GW stuff. I don't think that's unintentional. They were also talking about running an Infinity League, and were actually demoing it as we walked in.

 

[Pygmalion]

It's no secret that they don't care about you once you've bought their stuff. I just wonder how they are going to keep drawing in fresh blood when their prices are twice what anyone else is charging. Though part of their success has been because their target audience isn't aware of "anyone else". That's going to change though.
I was at a LGS this weekend. The isle that has GW stuff makes you walk past Reaper, Infinity, Flame of War, Malifaux, Tactics Dust, and all the board games before you get to the GW stuff. I don't think that's unintentional. They were also talking about running an Infinity League, and were actually demoing it as we walked in.

Thay lay that out in their business model:

Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall. While our 400 or so Hobby centres which show customers how to collect, paint and play with our miniatures and games provide another barrier to entry: our Fortress Moat. We have been building our Fortress Wall and Moat for many years and the competitive advantage they provide gives us confidence in our ability to grow profitably in the future.

The whole "Fortress Wall" "Fortress Moat" thing suggests that they are consciously following a policy of isolating their customers and keeping them ignorant of any alternatives.

Oh, and notice that bit about "defendable intellectual property." They only have a very limited amount of that, their products are so derivative, but a core part of their business strategy seems to have been using threats of lawsuits to shut down potential rivals; even when the case is meritless, many small businesses cannot afford the legal fees and simply shut down.

 

[TrystanGST]

Thay lay that out in their business model:



The whole "Fortress Wall" "Fortress Moat" thing suggests that they are consciously following a policy of isolating their customers and keeping them ignorant of any alternatives.

Oh, and notice that bit about "defendable intellectual property." They only have a very limited amount of that, their products are so derivative, but a core part of their business strategy seems to have been using threats of lawsuits to shut down potential rivals; even when the case is meritless, many small businesses cannot afford the legal fees and simply shut down.

Interesting. And telling. Of course, with them shutting down the "hobby" part of their hobby centers, reducing staff, and turning the remaining staff into "buy buy buy" drones, I wonder how impenetrable the wall really is. Obviously there are several established competitors out there already, and KS is proving a fertile ground for a new generation of mini companies. Look at KD - one guy, and he raised over $2 million in his initial KS. AND he can't keep his webstore stocked. I'm not saying that GW's demise is imminent...in fact the day they shut down (and it will happen if they don't adapt) will be a sad one. But I wonder how long they can continue to ignore the competition.

 

[marjedi]

I dont think they are ignoring their competitors. Its just that there isnt one giant "enemy" for them to be afraid off. Only one on the map to potentiallt take over is Privateer Press, and they are only really big in the US.

And i am not sure KS is a good basis for a long term buisness. Sure it generates short term income that can be spent on developing product, but they ca become a victim of their own success, if the KS contains enough bonus stuff to keep people occupied for a long time, why should they purchase more from said company any time soon. It is a slim edge they need to balance. And thst the KD guy cant keep his webstore stocked, isnt an indicarion of large sales in it self, could just be that manufacturing is too slow going.

Will GW react and change, yes. Any time soon, no. They have spent along time looking inwards to slim down the company, while at the same time investing in new tech. If the accelerated releases we have been seeing in the last 4-5 months is an indication they are ramping up production.

The only real problem GW faces is the high prices they charge, and the PR issues they are having as of late.

 

[TrystanGST]

True, KS isn't a guarantee of long term stability. But it's great for making people aware of companies that aren't GW. You can get a great deal on a game or minis or gaming minis, and if that one runs out, there's another one, or you can start looking at Warmahordes or Relic Knights or Sedition Wars or Malifaux or whatever. As Pygmalion pointed out, GW (partly) relies on keeping customers from being aware of other options. That's becoming increasingly hard, outside of their "hobby centers" that are adopting a buy or gtfo attitude.