How to define the horizontal line on NMM?

Juuso

New member
This is something that bothers me. I been examining the fine pics on this site, and the examples of NMM seem to favor the horizontal line being just that, horizontal. But on some minis this line doesn\'t look right, somehow.

On some minis though, the line is not horizontal, its more aligned to the contours of the weapon, armour etc.

What is the rule here, really?

Juha
 

finn17

New member
Some rules, some imagination..

Generally the horizon line will reflect the horizon of the type of environment you have imagined your mini inhabiting. If the fellow lives in a marsh or on a plain it might be a straight, horizontal line. If we are talking a character who lives in the mountains the horizon will be appropriate ie mountainlike. If he lives in New York, then you might have to try and somehow suggest the New York skyline in your horizon reflection:eek:


If you are aiming to create a reflection, then it will always be aligned to the contours of a weapon/shield etc as different components (according to their nature/angle etc) will reflect the horizon differently.

If you want some inspiration. browse the gallery and have a look at some of Arjay\'s work.

Good luck:bouncy:
 

DELTADOG

New member
The reason for the different horizon lines on the minis are the geometry of the surfaces the NMM is painted on. How to paint the horizonline on different surfaces you can learn in panzas article about NMM nice short and easy to understand
 

Juuso

New member
Ok, but what about...

...if I want to paint a complex item, like an armour consisting of multiple parts? Does each part reflect the horizon separately, so that a continuous line wont be shown but many smaller lines? (I hope this question makes sense to you.)

I assume that the height of the horizon line depends on the height of the imaginary light source, right?

Juuso
 

finn17

New member
Think carefully before attempting this...

Please don\'t get me wrong, but IMO SENMM is a very advanced technique that really requires the painter to have mastered lots of other techniques before they take it on. For instance, before attempting SENMM, it would be a good idea to be reasonably confident with NMM?

I am not trying to put you off, but I don\'t want to see you discouraged either.

To take your second point first. As far as I am concerned the height of the (reflected) horizon has absolutely nothing to do with the light source. The positioning of the reflected horizon on the metallic surface you are painting is determined by the angle of the metallic surface with regard to the horizon.

With regard to your first point: Yes, you are correct every single piece of metal that differs in angle or curvature will reflect the horison differently. Find a few reflective surfaces from around the house and take them outside to get a feel of how the reflections will behave.:flip:
 
I think each surface would reflect the scene individually - like you couldn\'t paint the armor on the legs earth and the chest and arms sky. Well you couldn\'t but I doubt it would creat the illusion of true reflectance.

Each piece also, depending on it\'s angle would reflect that same scene differently as well - surfaces facing the earth would get more of that while sides angled upward would reflect back the sky.

What about spoons - they reflect everything upside down if you look in the concave bit and right side up if you look on the back . . . good thing armor isn\'t made of spoons eh?
 
A

antichrist

Guest
Hey

are you from finland häh? Jos oot niin mistähän päin? Okay well when you look at real things made metal you\'ll see that it goes like that most of the time.

Antti Kemppainen

Keski-Suomesta
 
V

Vidja

Guest
Just a funny idea I just had: why don\'t you buy one of the wooden articulated dummies used by artists to draw proportions, then spray it with chrome car paint?
You could build yourself a fake environment (with an horizon) in a box, and then place the dummy inside in the same stance of the mini you want to paint, and just copy. If the mini\'s wearing multi-part armour, just cut corresponding cardboard shapes, spray them chrome and apply them to your puppet... :)
 

Juuso

New member
Originally posted by antichrist
are you from finland häh? Jos oot niin mistähän päin? Okay well when you look at real things made metal you\'ll see that it goes like that most of the time.

Antti Kemppainen

Keski-Suomesta

häh vaan ittelles! Eli joo, Mansesta ollaan.

Anyhow, I guess I\'d better start with simple things, as you suggested and, and worry about the complex later.

Cheers, everybody!
 
E

elouchard

Guest
If there is a museum nearby with old armor, try going there and looking closely at the reflections. That\'s the best way to learn how light reflects from armor on figures.

Some pictures are on the web but not enough.
 

Infidel Castro

New member
Madness!

Originally posted by Vidja
Just a funny idea I just had: why don\'t you buy one of the wooden articulated dummies used by artists to draw proportions, then spray it with chrome car paint?
You could build yourself a fake environment (with an horizon) in a box, and then place the dummy inside in the same stance of the mini you want to paint, and just copy. If the mini\'s wearing multi-part armour, just cut corresponding cardboard shapes, spray them chrome and apply them to your puppet... :)

That\'s crazy...but I like it :)

rev
 

abstracity

New member
If you are going for realistic...

remember that no matter what the surface is, the reflection of the horizon will be in same plane as the real horizon.

What?! What I mean is, ifI\'m painting a vambrace (forearm armor) and the figure\'s arm is at a 45 degree angle to the ground, the horizon line WILL NOT be ata 45 degree angle to the ground. The horizon line will be parallel to the ground BUT it will be warped where the armor begins to curve. So...only a bit of the line will be straight, the rest will be sorta curvy (at the ends essentially)... keep in mind here that a suface that points away from the ground can\'t reflect the ground!! This is where looking at real armor helps a lot. Also think of this: take a mirror, look at the reflection, now rotate the mirror...did the reflection rotate too? Of course not!! And shiny armor is just crappy mirrors if you think about it...

I see a lot of SE NMM that just looks odd because the artist has just made the horizon line follow the \"direction\" of the surface it\'s painted on (one extremely well painted Grom from the Cool Mini painting contest comes to mind...).

Sorry to muddy things more...but, if you wanna get it right...
 

Juuso

New member
That\'s just just what\'s getting me in knots over this: some people paint the horizontal line strictly aligned to horizon, whereas some don\'t. The latter seem to make the line follow the longest side of the item to be painted, which usually results at an angle to the horizon.
 

finn17

New member
I think what\'s getting you in knots is that you are asuming the horizon is fixed

Well of course the horizon is fixed, but what you have to remember is:

1) the imagined horizon exists only in the mind of the painter

2) Whilst the horizon is certainly \'fixed\', its reflection is not.

If you took a figure with say a polished metallic shield it would reflect the horizon of their environment. But as this environment exists purely in the imagination of the painter, it could look like absolutely anything, provided it follows the rules of physics regarding reflections.

Take a mini and blu-tak a small piece of mirror on to him to represent a shield. If you place him in various positions throughout the the house or outside, the horizon will change accordingly. If you change the angle of the shield in relation to the horizontal plane to simulate a pose, the reflected horizon will change. If you place him on a hill facing up the reflected horizon will (subtley) change - if you place him facing down the same hill it will also (subtely) change.

There is no fixed rule. The horizon only exists in the painters imagination. The fixed rules are all to do with the physics relating to reflective surfaces.
 

mouse

Member
right on, finn...

Originally posted by finn17
Well of course the horizon is fixed, but what you have to remember is:

1) the imagined horizon exists only in the mind of the painter

2) Whilst the horizon is certainly \'fixed\', its reflection is not.

If you took a figure with say a polished metallic shield it would reflect the horizon of their environment. But as this environment exists purely in the imagination of the painter, it could look like absolutely anything, provided it follows the rules of physics regarding reflections.

Take a mini and blu-tak a small piece of mirror on to him to represent a shield. If you place him in various positions throughout the the house or outside, the horizon will change accordingly. If you change the angle of the shield in relation to the horizontal plane to simulate a pose, the reflected horizon will change. If you place him on a hill facing up the reflected horizon will (subtley) change - if you place him facing down the same hill it will also (subtely) change.

There is no fixed rule. The horizon only exists in the painters imagination. The fixed rules are all to do with the physics relating to reflective surfaces.

finn is definitely right on 3 accounts (that\'s 3 separate postings...uh...unless i can\'t count).

SENMM is an advanced technique. Difficult to grasp and even harder to attain a satisfactory level of competence. Much less mastering it.

Finn is also right. The horizontal line differs based on the surface of the object, such as concave or convex, the texture such as smooth or rough, the material and of course the angle of the object as compared to the absolute horizon.

First off, no offence to any artists here but although many had somewhat achieved a appealing and captivating SENMM, they didn\'t really understand the physics of it. I\'m not a physicist but i did study it as my minor for 6 years and it\'s definitely wrong in most of the SENMM depicted.

The articles however are accurate in their description of SENMM but well, easier said than done. :)
 

finn17

New member
Sorry mouse...

Originally posted by mouse
finn is definitely right on 3 accounts (that\'s 3 separate postings...uh...unless i can\'t count).

Uhh...Sorry mouse...was I boring you?:bouncy:
 

Juuso

New member
Originally posted by mouse

Finn is also right. The horizontal line differs based on the surface of the object, such as concave or convex, the texture such as smooth or rough, the material and of course the angle of the object as compared to the absolute horizon.

First off, no offence to any artists here but although many had somewhat achieved a appealing and captivating SENMM, they didn\'t really understand the physics of it. I\'m not a physicist but i did study it as my minor for 6 years and it\'s definitely wrong in most of the SENMM depicted.

The articles however are accurate in their description of SENMM but well, easier said than done. :)

Thank you, you\'ve verified my suspicion: Although they are absolutely fab minis, the application of NMM on some minis is wrong.

And I don\'t want put people down for lack of realism, it\'s more a matter of what feels and looks wrong. You can get away with it as long as it looks good!

And all that conflicting stuff makes learning from the examples that much harder. But I will get to the bottom of this even if it kills you! :rolleyes:
 

Panza

New member
Finding the horizon line is the hardest part of SENMM painting (everything else is just blending, layering or feathering) and there is an easy way to do this.

Bear in mind that the horizon will only be reflected in parts of the mini that are perpendicular to the base, that is surfaces that are absolutely vertical. The problem here is that vertical surfaces can be contained within complex curves, but only the part of the complex shape which has the perpendicular surface will show the dark horizon line. Surfaces lying at a greater angle (facing upward) will show sky, those with a lesser angle will show ground.

The easiest way to find the perpendicular surfaces is to undercoat your mini and then hold it under a bright vertical light source. This will separate the surfaces facing up and those facing down. The line in between these surfaces will be where your horizon lines should be. If a part of the mini, for example a shoulder pad, doesn\'t have a light and dark separation line, then the horizon will not be seen in this part. A very complex shape, for example a piece of muscle shaped chest armour, may have multiple separation lines which means the armour will reflect multiple horizons, and in this case the hardest job will be to try to see how they move into one another.

Complex shapes are, believe it or not, slightly easier to work out than tubes. Tubes are very easy when they are horizontal because the perpendicular line is ease to find. When they start moving to vertical things get a little tricky and, while I could try to explain it, it\'s easier if I just say \'go buy a chrome tube and study it\'. It\'s a bit of a cop out but it\'s useful advice. Believe it or not, the item I studied to learn more about SENMM was a tap (faucet?). Taps contain a lot or different shapes and are useful for studying how reflections relate to surfaces and angles.

Hope this helps. :D

P.S. Yay, the big century! :bouncy:
 

mouse

Member
Panza...

COOL!

You should put this in the article section. What you said makes logical physics sense.

Thumbs UP!!

PS: Oops! ANd thumbs up too for your 101st postings!!!
 

finn17

New member
Wake up mouse!!

Originally posted by mouse
COOL!

You should put this in the article section. What you said makes logical physics sense.

Mouse...check out Panzas article..you will find it here:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/go.php?go=articlephp&aid=164&orderby=date&levels=99

lol
 
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