4th ed. Test Drive

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
OK, 4th ed has been out a while now. I\'ve taken it for a test drive.

Low level fighter vs. monsters.

It still feels like d&d, kinda like my work boots \"feel\" like dress shoes.

Likes:
Eliminate most saving throws, just roll against Will, Reflex, Fort like you do AC.

Much less dice rolling. One d20 per combatant.

Dislikes:
Magic is completely different. This may take some getting used to or it may be a deal breaker. I\'m not sure yet.

The fact that I have soooo much 3.0 & 3.5 stuff that does not look like it will port into 4.0 without a LOT of work.

The fact that I am going to be buying a lot more books.
 

Zora

New member
Yes, everything I\'ve heard from others in the know just leads me to think I will not be a convert to 4.0.

I\'m not being a naysayer per se, but with all of the 3.5 stuff out there and the feeling that it works better for what I want to do I won\'t be switching.

A LOT less expensive that way, also.


Feels like when WOTC did \"Portals\" for Magic:TG. Over-simplified everything and it didn\'t work with the already established format.
 
S

Shadzar

Guest
Originally posted by ZoraFeels like when WOTC did \"Portals\" for Magic:TG. Over-simplified everything and it didn\'t work with the already established format.

No they pretty much rewrote the game from the ground up to function like the minis game with some RPG thrown in. If it wasn\'t for the brand label on it, you wouldn\'t recognize it as being D&D.
 

Gilvan Blight

New member
I\'ve got to say I was a skeptic of the new system but I\'ve found that I am really enjoying it.

Simplified is definately the wrong term. Streamlined would be better. Combat is much more complex, with many more options and a lot more strategy then any previous edition.

There is more information on how to Role play and play in character in the first chapter of the Players Handbook than I have seen in any RPG since Mechwarrior (which had a great what is roleplaying section). Now seeing this in game is something else entirely, but the way it\'s presented in the rules, WotC doesn\'t want D&D to become a big boardgame, which is great. Unfortunately it\'s up to the players to make sure this doesn\'t happen.

The new Skill Challenge system is a challenge at first. It\'s way too easy to just use this as a substitute for roleplaying. Once you get used to it and when you have a GM that understands the system properly, I\'ve found you end up with more oportunities to roleplay instead of less.

I\'m currently running a 3.5 game one weekend and playing in the 4th ed Living Forgotten Realms on the oposite weekend. In all honesty the 3.5 game plays more like a glorified boardgame then the 4e does.

Here\'s a link to the full review I did up on the PHB after playing my first game.
REVIEW
 

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
Unknown:Okay I don\'t normally have an Unknown section of my reviews, but I can\'t decide if this next bit is good, bad or ugly. The biggest thing I felt while reading the rules, is that it\'s just not D&D. It\'s not the same game. They changed it so significantly with the power system that it\'s just not D&D anymore. If you threw another name on this book and had me read it, I can\'t be sure I would call it out as a new edition of Dungeons and Dragons (except for when I saw D&D copyrights like Drow and Underdark, or races like Teiflings and Displacer Beasts). Now I will admit playing it, felt more D&D like then reading it, but it still was unlike any game I had played before. It\'s not just the combat either, the whole skill challenge system is just foreign, unlike any other system I have played. So is this a good thing? Well it can be if you didn\'t like the old D&D system, or if you have no pre-conceived notions about what D&D should \'feel\' like. Is it a bad thing? Well it could be if you want to play a Gnome Bard, or if you like changing classes every level. Is it an Ugly thing? No probably not, but if you are a AD&D 2nd edition purist I don\'t think you will find much familiar here. It\'s just different, it feels different and it plays different.
Gilvan, I hope you don\'t mind my quoting your other thread with the review. I am not trying to take it out of context, just expand upon that area.

I agree - if they had put a \"Tunnels & Trolls\" (or any other D&D-ish game) cover on the book, I might have believed it. It does not play like any other version of D&D I have ever played (and I\'ve played them all - from white box on up).

The system is not bad. In fact, much of it is very good. But it does not have the old D&D flavor to it. Fireballs & lightning bolts at 5th level mage - and you get one per day - so be careful who you dump it on. Not some new \"per combat\" power (spell).

With that in mind, I could bring an ODD character up through 1e, 2e, 3e & even 3.5e. I\'ve converted old modules and dungeons on the fly. But I don\'t see a whole lot of easy way to do that here without some MAJOR reworking of character, monsters & dungeons.

I\'m thrilled that they took an old series of modules and took them to 4e (Giant\'s Lair). And I admit that I would love to run or play in it. But I really don\'t see that happening for a while.

My current gaming group has been together for about seven years now. We learned 3.0 & 3.5 together. But we\'ve all pretty much agreed that we have way too much invested in 3.5 (bookshelf) to just toss it and move up to 4e.

Were I to be starting a brand new group with a bunch of new players, I would probably go with 4e.

Were I interested in playing any of the living campaigns at the cons I make it to (2-3 per year), I\'d have to learn 4e.
 

Gilvan Blight

New member
No problem on quoting. Just wish I got the email that there was a reply to this so I wasn\'t replying 10 days later.

There is most definitely no way to convert a previous edition character over to the new edition. You can\'t convert monsters either. Even modules are near impossible to conver due to the new Skill Challenges. You can convert the combats, but really all you are doing is using the keyed maps, all the rest you would have to look up yourself or make up.

It\'s interesting you mention tournament play as that\'s what actually got me to try 4e. I currently run a 3.5 campaign every other weekend with a group of friends. They have no interest in swapping over to 4e. Actually right now is a great time to be running 3.5 as everyone is upgrading, I just bought 13 hardcover sourcebooks and a handful of modules for only $50! I\'m now starting a second shelf.

I was pretty content with just doing this until an out of town DM moved into the city and he is/was a big RPGA fan. We\'ve never had any sanctioned events in Windsor before, and I thought the whole concept of a \'worldwide\' game just sounded too cool to pass up now that it\'s local. So after discussing it with the wife (as I would now be playing every weekend) I went out and picked up a 4e PHB and had two days to read it and make my first character.

Up till that point I was opposed to the new system, mainly based on reviews I had read online. The only thing that even got me to play it was the fact that I could play in RPGA games. It\'s only once playing that I started to like the system.

The one thing I have definitely noticed. Anyone who liked playing a Wizard or Cleric in any previous edition, generally does not like 4e. People who played Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, generally love 4e. People who played skill based characters like Bards and Rogues are sitting on the fence. A broad generalization but with 14 RPGA players who have more games under their belts then I every will this is definitely true. The reason seems to be all based around the new power system.

As far as any class that used to get to pick from 1000\'s of spells from innumerable sourcebooks and that had the ability to make thier own spells up on the fly, this new system is extremely limiting in a way. With the new system your Mage will now have something to do every round, as opposed to sitting in the back waiting for the right moment to use up one of those memorized spells. This is really cool and great at first level, but once it sinks in that you get to pick abilities from a list of 6 per level vs 15-100 per level, you realized your character will never be as versatile as before.

Now the Fighter types have the opposite. Instead of just moving in and attacking each round, as they level up they get all kinds of new powers and abilities to do even more massive damage or hit multiple targets, etc. Heck each hit you get to pick from a range of at will powers instead of just rolling that D20 for D8 damage round after round.

Lastly are the skill classes. These are on the fence as in some ways they have more options and in others they have less. In combat setting up that sneak attack is easier then usual with the ability to pull and slide people and combat advantage replacing flanking. But then when it comes time to put all those skills to work you notice they have all been replaced by Thievery. One skill, one stat. No more specialization in different areas, no more becoming a master climber, etc. You no longer spend skill points, you are trained or not.
 

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
Originally posted by Gilvan BlightThe one thing I have definitely noticed. Anyone who liked playing a Wizard or Cleric in any previous edition, generally does not like 4e. People who played Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, generally love 4e. People who played skill based characters like Bards and Rogues are sitting on the fence. A broad generalization but with 14 RPGA players who have more games under their belts then I ever will this is definitely true. The reason seems to be all based around the new power system.

As far as any class that used to get to pick from 1000\'s of spells from innumerable sourcebooks and that had the ability to make thier own spells up on the fly, this new system is extremely limiting in a way. With the new system your Mage will now have something to do every round, as opposed to sitting in the back waiting for the right moment to use up one of those memorized spells. This is really cool and great at first level, but once it sinks in that you get to pick abilities from a list of 6 per level vs 15-100 per level, you realized your character will never be as versatile as before.

Now the Fighter types have the opposite. Instead of just moving in and attacking each round, as they level up they get all kinds of new powers and abilities to do even more massive damage or hit multiple targets, etc. Heck each hit you get to pick from a range of at will powers instead of just rolling that D20 for D8 damage round after round.

Lastly are the skill classes. These are on the fence as in some ways they have more options and in others they have less. In combat setting up that sneak attack is easier then usual with the ability to pull and slide people and combat advantage replacing flanking. But then when it comes time to put all those skills to work you notice they have all been replaced by Thievery. One skill, one stat. No more specialization in different areas, no more becoming a master climber, etc. You no longer spend skill points, you are trained or not.
I think you just nailed it on the head there.

Mages/clerics/sorcerers/druids/etc. are used to having a spell list of LOTS of spells.

If you were a guy that had to \"load\" your spells, the size of your list didn\'t matter as much, but you still had a lot to choose from.

Now, you can use magic missle every round, but that is about it until you get a new \'per round\' offensive ability. Might as well have a crossbow.
 
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