A bit of spleen venting....

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Arjay
I\'m curious, do you have any idea of how many Iraqi civilians have died since the conflict began?

Do you?
After being through Katrina and New Orleans, witnessing first hand, I found out one very important thing.

The Media lies.

The truth in the media today is unimportant.
All that matters is money.
The more violence, the better the stories, the more viewers. If it\'s even remotely plausible, they\'ll run with it, without checking out the facts.
And sometimes, just sometimes, they\'ll cover it up, because the real evidence starts leaking out, they\'ll just stop reporting on it.

 

[Arjay]

WMD was an excuse? So fucking what?
We took down a tyrant who was murdering thousands of people, young, old, women and men.
A tyrant who supported suicide bombers, paying their families money.
A tyrant who let his sons terrorize, torture rape, and kill, who knows how many people.
A tyrant that could have led his country into a golden age of prosperity, but left his people in the dark ages.
I don\'t give a rats ass if we gave the excuse that Saddam had Toxic Flatulence.
He had to go. Period.

And turning Iraq into the next Afghanistan is preferable?

Sure there were reasons to get rid of the guy but The US government never sees the big picture... All this conflict is achieving is pushing more and more moderate muslims from around the world into extremism. I\'m sure al-Qaeda has never had so many young men volunteering to commit acts of terrorism.

 

[No Such Agency]

WMD was an excuse? So fucking what?
We took down a tyrant who was murdering thousands of people, young, old, women and men.
A tyrant who supported suicide bombers, paying their families money.
A tyrant who let his sons terrorize, torture rape, and kill, who knows how many people.
A tyrant that could have led his country into a golden age of prosperity, but left his people in the dark ages.
I don\'t give a rats ass if we gave the excuse that Saddam had Toxic Flatulence.
He had to go. Period.

Sadly, that doesn\'t change the fact that the US government went to war with what was AT THE TIME a false rationale. The justification for the war kept changing over time... Terrorism... WMD\'s... Saddam gassed his own people. Each of these but the last was found to be false, and while I\'m glad to see Saddam in jail, the reasons now given are NOT the same reasons that the US first went to war with. The war was based on lies, and that is why it is morally tainted in people\'s eyes...

Well, that and the fact that the misery of the war probably quadrupled Al Qaeda\'s recruitment in Iraq. The way I understand it, Saddam would have had Islamist radicals like AQ strung up by their thumbs. And between the Moslem-specific prison at Guantanamo Bay and the sexually sadistic horrors of Abu Ghraib, half the Moslem world is convinced that the US has finally declared open war on their religion. So thanks to the \"War on Terror\" there are probably more terrorists now than before!

But I veer off-topic...

 

[Arjay]

Originally posted by No Such Agency

Sadly, that doesn\'t change the fact that the US government went to war with what was AT THE TIME a false rationale. The justification for the war kept changing over time... Terrorism... WMD\'s... Saddam gassed his own people. Each of these but the last was found to be false, and while I\'m glad to see Saddam in jail, the reasons now given are NOT the same reasons that the US first went to war with. The war was based on lies, and that is why it is morally tainted in people\'s eyes...

Well, that and the fact that the misery of the war probably quadrupled Al Qaeda\'s recruitment in Iraq. The way I understand it, Saddam would have had Islamist radicals like AQ strung up by their thumbs. So thanks to the \"War on Terror\" there are probably more terrorists now than before!

But I veer off-topic... [/quote]

Beautifully said... If only I was so eloquent...

 

[Shawn R. L.]

A New-Orleans-size disaster can occur somewhere else and Americans barely hear about it.

Guess that\'s why we ALWAYS show up with tons of stuff to help the victoms.............we really suck.

 

[No Such Agency]

Shawn, I\'m not saying the US doesn\'t help out, I\'m just saying that it\'s hard for some people to appreciate that help when they remember some of the other things the US has \"helped\" them with over the past few decades.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Name me a perfect country with perfect leaders who always do perfect things (this is the standard the US is held to) then mabey I\'ll listen with a friendlier ear to all the bitching about us. For a country at the top of the heap in such an overwhelming way as we found ourselves after WW2, I think we have handled ourselves in a fairly decent way. Consiedring from 45 to 50 we could have taken over much of the world - and didnt. We rebuilt our enemies. ..

 

[Arjay]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.
Name me a perfect country with perfect leaders who always do perfect things (this is the standard the US is held to) then mabey I\'ll listen with a friendlier ear to all the bitching about us. For a country at the top of the heap in such an overwhelming way as we found ourselves after WW2, I think we have handled ourselves in a fairly decent way. Consiedring from 45 to 50 we could have taken over much of the world - and didnt. We rebuilt our enemies. ..

When 25,000+ civilians die people are gonna bitch...

 

[Legacy Account]

Good debate.

The arguement about taking Saddam out because he was abusing and murdering his people is rubbish. There are regimes all over the planet that are committing similar abuses of human rights but the US will not confront them.

Zimbabwe, North Korea, China, Russia, Syria, Israel to name just a few....

Iraq stinks of alterior motives and unfinished business. It\'s a big, bloody mess and I seriously hope that the UK withdraws ASAP before we create an entire nation of extremists and terrorists....

 

[Katana_Angel]

Its posts like these that makes me sad. I\'m an amercian, and all I feel like anymore is everything is my fault, Mine, mine, mine, shame on me for using other people\'s oxygen.
I\'m not kidding, either. Can\'t we just... all agree that natural disasters, wherever they occur, are awful? Can\'t we just try to focus on helping the people that are injured and suffering instead of turning everything into a blame game?
Or at least... agree to disagree.
Sigh.

*crawls back under her rock*

 

[Arjay]

Not to blame? Everyone knows that the US military has some crazy weather machine hidden somewhere... Bush was trying to send off a big hurricane in the direction of China but he wasn\'t quite sure where China was so unfortunately New Orleans got it instead. He then thought New Orleans was somewhere in Central America so he wasn\'t in any great rush to help...

I don\'t think anyone was blaming anyone for what happened in New Orleans. The usual cost cutting and general ineptitude (which every government is guilty of) exacerbated that disaster. Additionally I don\'t think anyone\'s arguing with the fact that The US and The UK are generally 1st in to help when a disaster occurs - where ever it might be. The only thing I\'m really critical about is Iraq, it\'s a giant bloody fiasco which never should have been revisited.

 

[Drake Farstrider]

Originally posted by Arjay
Not to blame? Everyone knows that the US military has some crazy weather machine hidden somewhere... Bush was trying to send off a big hurricane in the direction of China but he wasn\'t quite sure where China was so unfortunately New Orleans got it instead. He then thought New Orleans was somewhere in Central America so he wasn\'t in any great rush to help...

I don\'t think anyone was blaming anyone for what happened in New Orleans. The usual cost cutting and general ineptitude (which every government is guilty of) exacerbated that disaster. The only thing I\'m really shitty about is Iraq, it\'s a giant bloody fiasco which never should have been revisited.

Have you been playing Command & Conquer Red Alert 2?

I do agree that there have been problems with the Iraqi campaign. I think we would of been better off assassinating Sadam and his regime. Although I am not sure if the outcome would of been much different.

 

[Arjay]

Originally posted by Drake Farstrider
Have you been playing Command & Conquer Red Alert 2?

No, I have a Mac so I don\'t play computer games...

 

[paintingploddy]

Evil dave showed us the photos, I saw that machine!!!!!!

On another point though the US picks and chooses who to help, and has a long history of choosing friends for pragmatic reasons. Osama was once a tool of choice when enemies were different.

And Shawn RL, many believe the US already act like that. In a sense this is an argument about the chicken and the egg. Did the bad attitude come from the US first, or the world first. I do know there are a number of international treaties the US refuses join, starting with Kyoto. The US is also happy to try other countries citizens for offences outside the US in a fashion which seems less than fair while refusing to expose US citizens to justice at the Hague.

I can argue passionately, and this is probably why these topics get out of control. Just remember one thing though, the money isn\'t yours. You are borrowing it from Asia and Europe. You are the country with the greatest debt in the world. This isn\'t a good thing.

 

[Drake Farstrider]

Originally posted by Arjay

Originally posted by Drake Farstrider
Have you been playing Command & Conquer Red Alert 2?

No, I have a Mac so I don\'t play computer games...

Ahh to bad. In the game The Us has a weather machine the sends lightning strikes onto enemy bases.

 

[orctrader]

Still fairly new to these forums so didn’t realize “we” could be political.

To those US members who feel that “everyone hates us” remember this. Every time you hear someone here in the UK being critical towards you just be aware there are thousands more who consider you not only as natural and staunch allies, but as friends. They just don’t make as much noise about it.

We \"hate\" the French and they us. But it\'s just a joke really. If France were in trouble we would be there, shoulder to shoulder with them. And they for us.

And just remember what we are really here for. My two latest minis are not upto 50 votes yet.

 

[Orb]

Wow....this has kicked off since last night.

On an international forum, people will make comments like Trevor. He has the right to say that, and you have a right to vent spleen over it.

Evil Dave; that \"No WMD - so f**king what\" attitude is precisely the attitude that winds up so many, especially those outside of the US. Fine, you\'ve been to Iraq, I can\'t argue with that. But it was still a false premise.
And as Spacemunkie said, what about Zimbabwe.....terrible attrocities (please America, overthrow this dictator) China (botox from executed prisoners, anyone?), the list goes on........

As for the Earthquake. 23000 dead and rising last estimate. Relatively speaking, the Katrina disaster was small, but none the less tragic. But as was stated, there were warnings, the article in National Geographic proved that, that really weren\'t listened to. No warnings for Pakistan on this one.

One of the best things that may come out of this is actually some level of unity between India and Pakistan, as the quake happened in the Kashmir region. India have offered help and Pakistan have accepted it, as I understand it.

BTW, as a geologist, it is very likely we are still in the ice age. The ice age is composed of glacial and interglacial (warm) periods, hundreds of them. We are probably in an interglacial period now. 70000 years ago there were hippos in the UK. Hotter than now. That, offically was during the ice age. However, we are not helping one little bit and we are probably accellerating things a little too much. Especially when a country looks inwards and chooses to do it\'s own thing.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Originally posted by dauber22
quote----------------------------------------------------------

Forget piffling little hurricanes, here we have a REAL natural disaster, and in a country that isn\'t the most powerful in the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------

:flame::flame::flame:

Sorry. I donated to tsunami relief. I feel very sorry for the people in Pakistan, too, and will probably donate to that cause as well, but the above attitude jsut really pisses me off!!!!!

\"Yeah, F*ck it! Who cares if Americans die. They\'re all rich and uber-powerful so thier lives don\'t really count. Tragedies that befall them aren\'t really real. They\'re all just staged by Disney or something.\"

When something happens here, we hear way too much of that sh*t. When something happens elsewhere, all we hear is how WE didn\'t do enough to help out. Or in extreme cases, that we somehow CAUSED the event.

Its no wonder that many Americans think we should just tell the rest of the world to kiss our :moon:


Okay. I feel much better now. Thanks :duh:

Dauber, you\'re a good bloke and I agree partly with what you\'re saying....but Hurricane Stan got naff all coverage here and was a monster hurricane. The reason of course is that it affected a less-developed area of the world and the US and UK are bum-buddies. England\'s football got more news coverage over in England and the UK news than the Stan affair. If it was another hurricane in America it would have had shed-loads of coverage. That\'s the problem. A valid one too. It doesn\'t detract from suffering of ANY type of people. It\'s the media\'s portrayal that gets people annoyed. I hope I put that across all right ???

 

[Avelorn]

I was about to start a topic about this one this weekend, but I have decided that I won\'t be able to paint fast enough to be of any real help. therefore i\'m donating to this cause out of my pocket.

Actually I waited for someone else to start a topic.. but nobody did.

As a comment to the discussion here. Nothing is ever easy. It is very easy to blame USA politicians for not thinking in longterm projects, but really the entire global economy is based around shorttime gain. When the entire system focuses around economic growth instead of a sustainable development these things will happen. And some things you can\'t predict.

About global warming, who have an interest of negating it? allways trace the money... And as some scientists says.. it\'s probably too late now if we don\'t make a huge effort and do some inventions quick. When the warming increases it will start other processes that increase the speed of the warming, frozen gases will be released.

I had a huge argument with an american republican living in Sweden about the Iraqi war. He was hard to debate with as he refused to see things in another way in that specific issue. He wasn\'t interested in hearing my argument and negated to answer my questions. But why is that? Well... why does Dick Cheney have a more liberal view on homosexuality? The answer is of course that he has a daughter that is lesbian. He has gained understanding for the issue because he has actually experience from it. What we need is more politicians with actual experience, and well-founded such, from the issues they are deciding on.

If you surround yourself with people (and a reality)that has a specific view and answers questions in a specific way you will probably form your ideas in line with or as a conflict to that discourse. You accept the \"science\" that speak on your behalf (read a part of the economic science in Bush case). And you also do not accept or refuse to read the science that oppose your views. sometimes you even make reference to litterature containing no more than propaganda for a specific interest.

It is very hard for politicians to change views like normal sensible people do.. actually it is considered political suicide. It is under very special circumstances that can happen, maybe it is what happening now, with new natural disasters every week it seems and a huge economical factor that is oil price. Perhaps it could actually change for the good? I hope so anyway.. and will try to engage myself in making a change, but it is nothing I take for granted. It is as stupid to be a cynic...

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by Avelorn
But why is that? Well... why does Dick Cheney have a more liberal view on homosexuality? The answer is of course that he has a daughter that is lesbian. He has gained understanding for the issue because he has actually experience from it. What we need is more politicians with actual experience, and well-founded such, from the issues they are deciding on.

His views may be \"more liberal\" on that subject but he apparently isn\'t sharing them with the rest of his party, who take every opportunity to remind us that they consider gay Americans to be second-class citizens or criminals. If Cheney supports gays, he is the worst kind of \"supporter\" - one with the power to do tremendous good, but who chooses to remain silent.

It is very hard for politicians to change views like normal sensible people do.. actually it is considered political suicide.

... see references to Kerry as a \"flip-flopper\", while Bush\'s bloody-minded determination in the face of all evidence and reason is apparently an asset.

Politics is ugly business. Is it any wonder the scum rises to the top?

... but I veer off-topic