A Positive View on Games Workshop

[mattsterbenz]

Originally posted by james sequeira
im sorry but its not like there raising prices a bit were talking 25% here

Dude, perhaps you dont understand me. 5 years staying at the same price, means 5 years worth of inflation and other increased costs the next time they adjust the price. It\'s simple enough. 5 years worth of inflation, times 4-5 percent inflation, is around a 25% increase. Plus, the core boxes jumping from $30 to $35 is not a 25% increase, its more like 16%. Also, you have to realize that the price of tin (which is in pewter) has skyrocketed, as well as petrolium (which is used in plastic).

 

[Holy Smigs]

ok,
price per model may still be comprable,
but there\'s a bigger picture you\'re ignoring here...

how many models, on average, do you need to play each of their games...


privateer press\'s warmachine takes one, 45$ boxed set.... with blister packs for alternate troops you\'re tourney/league ready for under 100 bucks...

games workshop averages two 30$ boxed sets and a 20$ command unit... and that\'s just 40k, for a small army...
to be able to go tourney/league, you\'re talking 3-4 times that minimum... not counting all the special models (heavy weapons and the like) you have to purchase...
want a las-cannon for your marine? well that\'s 10 bucks, each.
want a transport? 35...

and fantasty battle, just as bad...

and their \"small\" games (like Mordheim) get shut down and arn\'t really supported anymore (when was the last time a new Mordhiem or Gothic model came out?)


dunno about confrontation or any others...

but void (based on what void players have told me) was the same, you could be up and running a tourney army in under 50-60 bucks...

people draw arms against GW not \'cause their minis are over-prices for the paint and collectors...
but \'cause they\'re overprices for the game players (at least in my experience)

and unlike most other companies,
you not only have to buy the minis,
but the books as well for excessive price (alot of other games the books were cheap, or the stats came with the minis)

i just swapped over to Warmachine and it cost me 100 bucks (almost even) to get all the books my game group needed, and my army...

my Imperial Guard prolly ran me 3 times that (not gona count, but suffice i had to get an army box, not battle force, army box. and then tanks to get near 2k...)

not that i didn\'t enjoy painting every mini... but the gods know i wish i coulda played flexible games at less than 2k points (alas, GW designs their games rules so it\'s very difficult to have a variety under 1500 points... or 2k for IG)

 

[mattsterbenz]

Yes, warhammer was designed to play good sized games. that is where it is most challenging. But also for under $100 you could play warhammer warbands and 40k kill teams. This has always been supported in white dwarf magazines, and both games being in the 500 point range are easily affordable. Granted necromunda and mordheim have been \"abandoned\" the rules are still free online and any current models from the ranges of miniatures can be used.

Large games of warhammer and warhammer 40,000 are not for bargain hunters! Playing Rackham\'s Ragnarok (the equivalent to warhammer fantasy) would cost just as much.

Stop comparing the cost of a 2000 point army for warhammer to a small, 10-man warband. OF COURSE ITS CHEAPER! It is less models!

Also, Lord of the rings can be played with a small boxed set, you dont need a huge army, and that is FULLY SUPPORTED in white dwarf.

The books: $20 for your army. Not much to ask, considering its cheaper than those D&D books by a longshot. Also the rules are more complex so it takes more than a \"stat card\" to explain rules in detail.

 

[mattsterbenz]

Originally posted by Bobinator

Like I said its all about having this huge turn over of short term gamers, they dont give a monkeys how long their in the hobby for or how good a painter gamer they become as long as their sucked in and bled dry while their in is all that matters, they couldnt give a wet fart that their pretty much robbing the paper round money out their pockets as long as they make heaps of money.

Bullshit. Most of the people have been playing for many years (the owner of my store since rouge trader) and the kids who play are excited to get their miniatures, despite the \"rip off\" that is actually the same price as other companies, if not, cheaper.

 

[laurence]

GW

Originally posted by mattsterbenz
Well, before you reply to this, hear me out. Take what I have to say, and really think about where you stand.

Games Workshop: Everyone in the miniatures buisness knows this company. Most use their paints, play their games, paint their models, COMPLAIN ABOUT THEIR PRICES. Well im here to say it\'s completley fair, and has not really changed in the past several years. Also in comparison to other companies, competitive prices.

I DO NOT WORK FOR GW, JUST KEEP THAT IN MIND.

For those who want to know, the following older prices are from White Dwarf #222, and the new prices are from my store\'s product shelves.

Lets take for example, some Imperial Guard heavy weapon teams. Older price: $9.99. New Price: 3 for $30.00. What is the difference? The older set had 3, 1-piece models. Completley static, no customising possible without converting. The new ones: TONS of plastic sprues, several extra heavy weapons, every model in several pieces to create different poses. No difference in price per model, Huge difference in quality.

Next example: the imperial guard sentinal. That old metal one is ass ugly. Also $24.99. The new plastic one: SAME PRICE!!! Huge difference in quality, no difference in price.

Now, the space marine tactical squad: $35.00 (thats $3.50 per model) with tons of extra bitz, optional heavy weapon/assault weapons, purity seals, etc... The 2nd edition blister of 2 metal marines (no extra bits, no posable pieces) was $7.99! ($4 per model) Now that looks to me like a LOWER PRICE, for the newer, better, plastic models. What is the whining about?

Some might say: \"Oh plastic is cheaper, the model sets shouldn\'t be as expensive as metal.\" My arguement is, whats the difference? Heavier models? No personalizing your model\'s pose with metal? The plastic kits have the most customizing possible in a model, aside from sculpting one yourself. Other companies charge more, yet for some reason GW gets picked on.

Lets take Rackham for example: This goblin box on the wall next to me (based on the current exchange rate) is $32.00 for 8 models. At $4 a piece, thats a higher rate than the space marines, and a much higher rate than the fantasy core boxes (16-24 models for $35.00).

Recently, the paint cost went up to $3 per jar. So many people bawled that im surprised a riot didn\'t break out. This is the same cost as Vallejo and Reaper master series paints. Games workshop paint is thicker, does not settle into 5 layers like vallejo does, so it does not need to be shaken for 3 minutes per color, and the flip top bottles are the best for easy access.

My point is, there is no huge difference in prices. Stop saying \"8 years ago i could get things so much cheaper!!!\" Thats a lie. Games workshop is top of the notch, has great gaming systems, and customer service that can\'t be beat (Hobby centers offer free tips, great looking tables, etc... for no fee, other than having a GW produced army to play on the tables).

My point is, there is nothing wrong with games workshop. I am sick and tired of people shouting about prices, when there has been little to no change in price over the past 10 years. Stop complaining, they are a great company. They have far better hobby support than any other company, and are truly a great promoter of the hobby.

I am not trying to start a fight, I am just saying there is nothing to complain about, there is only praise for the company for doing far better than any other in the buisness.

-Matt Sterbenz

P.S. Games Workshop, keep doing what you are doing, promote the hobby, and keep the spirit of wargaming alive.

Thankyou Matt! It\'s great to read something positive about GW for a refreshing change. I feel that there\'s way too much negativity out there, so cheers mate for your optimistic views!

In all of my experience with gaming over the years, I\'ve never had and problems with GW. By and large there products are good and their staff always listen to my enthusiastic miniature ramblings.

They always release cool minis. Take Saint Celestine for example. So what\'s there to whinge about?

I recently went to \'Conflict\' in Box Hill, Melbourne. This is a GW gaming competition. And while I was initially dissappointed that Leigh Carpenter wasn\'t there after the GW staff member had said he was going to be there, I was cool with it.

I arrived a little later in the day and the GW d00ds at the d00r gave me and my mate half-price entry. C00l!

Anyway, thanks again Matt!

PS: I\'VE NEVER WORKED OR EVER WILL WORK FOR GW.

 

[laurence]

Originally posted by Bobinator
I agree with James here, 25% is taking the piss which ever way you look at it, and its not the cost of production that has gone up has it, no its the greed of the guys at the top that has.

Like I said its all about having this huge turn over of short term gamers, they dont give a monkeys how long their in the hobby for or how good a painter gamer they become as long as their sucked in and bled dry while their in is all that matters, they couldnt give a wet fart that their pretty much robbing the paper round money out their pockets as long as they make heaps of money.

I doubt theres any answer out there about this subject apart from the simple one which is that they are greedy bastards who dont care as long as we out here keep buying the stuff the churn out.

Hang on a moment Bobinator, the topic of this thread is about Games Workshop. Please refer to the website entitled: www.coolgovernmentornot.com if you want to complain about your government.

Cheers

 

[Sand Rat]

Hmm, well, as one of the Dinosaurs around here - and I may not have been doing this as long as say Dragonsreach or the Finns, I\'ve been doing this for a long damn time (30 years at the last count) you could say I have an opinion on this.

Yes, I own GW minis - hell I own Citadel minis and some of them are in my gallery here. I do also agree with some of the points you have raised about the good things GW has done for the hobby. However, I have also seen the bad things that GW has done to the hobby.

And I\'m sorry, but I dont think they\'ve done all that much for us - Ohh, plastic figures that I can customize and then not use with the new rules release? Boy that really does a lot for me as a gamer, doesn\'t it? Special deals where I get the two items for what they would both cost if I bought them serparately? A really good army Deal that costs me $16 less than if I put the order together on line?

Sorry man, I just dont see the goodness here. I\'m a dedicated lead addict, and all the extra bits and bobs I get from buying GW just aint worth the extra price.

Prime example here -

I\'m building an Imperial Army that I can never play at a GW Tournament, cause it will be mostly made up of non GW figures - Foundry for the most part.

I went looking on the GW website to add to my army and the prices just turned me off. I went to Foundry and found what I was looking for - at a better price too.

Now I will be the first to admit I\'m a power gamer, and was really looking at adding to my Gunline - cannons and handgunners were what I went looking for -

GW cannon/morter, plastic, 1 Each - cost $25 includes crew of 3.

Foundry Cannon, 1 each - cost $18, includes crew of 4.

Now, if I want multiple Cannon, can I get a deal from GW? Ummm no. 5 cannon - 125 Dollars.

Foundry? 5 Cannon - $78

Where do you think my money is going - I spent $417 dollars for 199 pieces - Infantry, handgunners, cannons, and command group - all lead/pewter and it worked out to $2.09 a mini.

Closest I could come from GW was 190 pieces for $475 - $2.50 each.

For that difference of $58 dollars I can get one 5 piece pistoleers set from GW - or I can get 9 Carbieneers from Foundry.

Say what you want, GW is in my opinion Screwing the folks who want to go beyond the intro sets. Sure, they have gotten a bunch of Noobs in the door, but there is no support beyond that.

And as for the statement that GW has stabilized the hobby and that has allowed the other companies to continue to do business? Please - Mini companies have come and gone over the last 30 years - You could honestly say that GW came into being because of the stabilizing effects of both Ral Partha and Heritage - neither of which is still around. Its a fact of business that companies come and go - if you\'re lucky the one you like sticks around for a while.

 

[mattsterbenz]

im not sure i know what you mean by how you cant use the models in a future release?

I agree that there are some companies that are cheaper than GW (obviously) But for that $58 difference or whatever the total was, you are paying for those extra bits, the customising, the great tables to play on at the local store, the hobby. This supports that local gw store or an independent retailer that is trying to make a profit. I will gladly buy green stuff at $10 to give them a little cash to keep their lights on. I get extremely frustrated with random customers coming in to my store with armies they bought for 60 dollars on ebay, play a few games, and never spend a dime there. How does that pay the store\'s bills? How does that show your gratitude for their service of providing a clean, quality gaming enviroment? Think about that...

 

[mattsterbenz]

also, anyone who is running 5 cannons in an empire army does not deserve to play with other people... -=CHEESE=-lol

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by mattsterbenz
im not sure i know what you mean by how you cant use the models in a future release?

I agree that there are some companies that are cheaper than GW (obviously) But for that $58 difference or whatever the total was, you are paying for those extra bits, the customising, the great tables to play on at the local store, the hobby. This supports that local gw store or an independent retailer that is trying to make a profit. I will gladly buy green stuff at $10 to give them a little cash to keep their lights on. I get extremely frustrated with random customers coming in to my store with armies they bought for 60 dollars on ebay, play a few games, and never spend a dime there. How does that pay the store\'s bills? How does that show your gratitude for their service of providing a clean, quality gaming enviroment? Think about that...

Actually, where I\'m at there are no GW shops the closest one is 6 hours air travel from my current location - in addition, in my home town there are no GW only shops - only gasp! independant retailers, whom GW screwed over in the last few years by removing the discounts and saying thou shalt charge GW prices for GW product.

Here again, the extra bits just arent worth the difference in prices.

As for my LGS when I am home - they provide a clean environment, but they host more than GW games - and have done so for years. I\'m actually kinda sorry for you if your only LGS is a GW shop - no variety at all for you.

And its not cheeze, its MUNCHKIN!lol

 

[Jericho]

Yeah if you want 5 cannons + your pistoliers that\'s a 4000-4999 point game. Bad example

To those who haven\'t realised, GW tries to keep their prices tied into point cost of the model. There are a few exceptions where practicality comes into play (ie. Gnoblars are 2 points each, so even a box of 24 doesn\'t compare in points cost to a unit of 16 Dwarfs, or 6 Ogres which are all the same $ cost for a box) but generally this is an attempt to keep all armies about the same price for collecting.

So your cannon example kinda proves my point... you can have 550 points of Empire Great cannons for $125, or spend $105 and get 3 core units of troops, equalling approximately 600 points after command upgrades and whatnot.

The basic components of an army (ie. the ones you need the most number of) tend to be the cheapest. That\'s a good thing.

And comparing a skirmish game like Warmachine to Warhammer Fantasy \"The game of epic fantasy battles\" (according to the box cover), is apples and oranges man.

It\'s like saying \"WTF this half inch thick gaming laptop costs twice as much as the desktop with exactly the same specs!\"

 

[mattsterbenz]

i actually work at a Independent Retailer, there are about a dozen in the phoenix area, and one small GW store in the mall... i guess i wasnt very clear.

im not trying to sound like an ass in my posts. i really like hearing what other people have to say, as the influence helps me make decisions and shape/change my opinion.

 

[mattsterbenz]

@steelcult: The boss of the store i work at went to the Independent Retailer\'s seminar at GD LA last week, and GW is really getting on the ball with IR\'s. Firstly, any out of date product that is not selling they will buy back. Each store will be called by GW several times per month to check in on things. IR\'s will soon be able to stock Forge World, and GW distributing rep\'s will advise on orders (for example if there is 15 saurus temple guard command blisters on an order, they will ask if it was a mistake on the form, because they should only have _ many in stock based on popularity.\"

I am very impressed with what is going on with their plans. That is also where i heard about the 5-year plan. Basically, if a price on one type of product changes, it wont change again for 5 more years, then it will be re-evaluated and will either stay, increase, or decrease in cost.

 

[sebrushworth]

Where are you getting your information about paint prices? GW paint generally costs 3 dollars for a 12 ml bottle, while Vallejo generally costs 2.50 for a 17 ml bottle. That\'s a big difference in price. In my opinion (having used both extensively) Vallejo is also far superior, and the dropper bottles are much more useful than GWs pots (at least if you use a palette and water the paint down before putting it on the figure).

I\'m not rabidly anti-GW on principle. I\'ve been in to the hobby for 13 years and it\'s GW that got me in to it, and I think a lot of their new stuff is far superior to anything they made before. But obviously GW are doing something wrong, since they barely turned a profit last year.

I really don\'t understand what the problem is with plastics, specially now that the quality of plastics is nearing or even surpassing the quality of metals. The reason plastics are expensive is because the moulds are much more expensive than the metal moulds. Paint sticks better to plastic, if you drop a plastic figure on the floor it won\'t break apart or chip, and converting is much easier. Big advantages in my opinion.

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by Jericho
Yeah if you want 5 cannons + your pistoliers that\'s a 4000-4999 point game. Bad example

To those who haven\'t realised, GW tries to keep their prices tied into point cost of the model. There are a few exceptions where practicality comes into play (ie. Gnoblars are 2 points each, so even a box of 24 doesn\'t compare in points cost to a unit of 16 Dwarfs, or 6 Ogres which are all the same $ cost for a box) but generally this is an attempt to keep all armies about the same price for collecting.

So your cannon example kinda proves my point... you can have 550 points of Empire Great cannons for $125, or spend $105 and get 3 core units of troops, equalling approximately 600 points after command upgrades and whatnot.

The basic components of an army (ie. the ones you need the most number of) tend to be the cheapest. That\'s a good thing.

And comparing a skirmish game like Warmachine to Warhammer Fantasy \"The game of epic fantasy battles\" (according to the box cover), is apples and oranges man.

It\'s like saying \"WTF this half inch thick gaming laptop costs twice as much as the desktop with exactly the same specs!\"

True.

But by the same token, pricing the Regimental sets the same as if you were buying both pieces of the set separately makes no sense either -

Empire Greatswords Box Set - $50.00
Empire Greatswords Command - $15.00
Empire Greatswords Regiment - $65.00 - and all it is is the Box set plus the Command set.


Or how about this one from the Lizardmen range -

Temple Gaurd - 5 per box - $22.00
Fielded in units of 10

So to be able to play a TG unit in my Liz army I\'ve got to drop $44?

Or, I can buy one TG unit, and one TG command - $47

Or I can say Fugg it and Drop $69 for the regiment - 12 TG, one Standard Bearer, a musician, and one Champion.

They say the rules are set up for Large Battles on the table top, but the prices aren\'t. Most beginners just don\'t have the kinda cash to drop to get a good base army and will spend years building a good army, only to have the look of it all change down the road.

$5 a mini for their metal ones, and between $4.40 and $5.00 in my lizard man example for the plastic ones - when Reaper is charging between $4.00 and $8.00 for all metal - and Foundry\'s stuff is between $3.00 and $3.60 a piece when bought off the rack, and $1.75 to $2.80 when bought in the 3 pack deal, and around $2.05 a mini if bought in the various horde deals they have, and again all of Foundry\'s stuff is all lead.

Yes, with the lead minis I lose the \"bits\" and the \"customization\" that I get with the plastic minis from GW - but I\'m not going for that. I want a fairly heavy army, not something that I can spend years customizing.

 

[Jericho]

Lizardmen are a messed up example because they don\'t have quite as much plastic as other armies. Anyway the TG are pewter, not plastic. Plain old Saurus are the plastic kit, and they\'re either 12 or 16 to a set. Been too long, and I don\'t play them.

<edit>

Oh and by the way, I personally cannot stand working with lead miniatures. They break, bend, flake off paint, and all kinds of other stupid nonsense that GW\'s pewter doesn\'t do. And at the end of the day my clippers, hobby knife and Dremel don\'t notice much a difference unless I\'m randomly sawing things in half for the hell of it. I\'ll take pewter or plastic over lead any day, even if it\'s more pricey.

</edit>

Are you sure your prices are correct US prices? The Greatswords are 10 for $45 in Canada, and we have the weaker dollar.

US prices on pewter figures don\'t make as much sense as most other countries since they package stuff differently (they do their own manufacturing).

Re: Vallejo pricing, they might be a fair bit cheaper but they\'re a hassle to use IMO and I don\'t find the quality to be better. Certainly not good enough to replace my ~100 pots of Citadel paint that are still working just fine for me.

 

[mattsterbenz]

for plastics, 12 saurus warriors for $35 is a little over $3 per, skinks at a little over $1.5 per (24 for $35). i dont know where you got $4.50-$5 for the plastic ones.

also, temple guard are a unit that you would only have a few models with a Slann in the unit, and are a rediculious amount of points (with a slann, about half your 2000 point army, for a total of less than $100.)

 

[Jericho]

Good points, Mattsterbenz. A unit of Greatswords with Elector Count leading them wouldn\'t realistically be more than 450 points even with a banner. Temple Guard and their Slann would be like 1000.

 

[mattsterbenz]

Point is, every army has something that is a high amount of points, at the same cost as something of lower points value. In the end, most 2000 point armies are around $300, with exception to all metal armies and ravenwing for 40k.

 

[Sand Rat]

Are you sure your prices are correct US prices? The Greatswords are 10 for $45 in Canada, and we have the weaker dollar.


Strait from the GW US Website this morning are all the prices for their pieces I have quoted.

Edit - The price I quoted was based on the TG being Plastic, not Lead -

Yes, a 16 piece regiment of plastic Liz are $35 or $2.18 each.