a question about space marine design

[wightzombie]

uhmmm, well basically i was at my friends house and he was sculpting his own logan grimnar for a space marine armie out of super sculpty. then i came up with something that seemed curious to me. warhammer 40k seems to easily be the biggest range of sci-fi minis available, sells well etc, how do you like specifically, the look of space marines? ive heard some very talented painters voice that space marines dont do it for them. is it a scifi vs fantasy thing or what would you suggest be done on them different? less bulk, more human, more down to earth, more details, more form fitting, change thier world, history background, or if you like them why specifically? basically what im trying to do is gather some info up and try to design my own scifi guy that is right up there with the best. so if you could let me know whats up, any links etc pointing to stuff you like.

 

[Sand Rat]

Ok, you asked for it. The biggest problem I have with the space marines for 40k is all the crap they supposedly wear into combat - here we have the elite military force of the future (where we have such things as power armor) and they go into battle looking like they just looted the costuming departments of several major movie studios, along with reading every piece of military history for the last 8000 years and trying to cram it into their gear. Sure, there is supposed to be some element of suspension of disbelief here but for gods own sake, the first time they got shot at they\'d trip over all the gegaws and trinkets and robes they have on. I can see all that stuff on dress uniforms, but not in the field.

 

[wightzombie]

hehheh

lol i liked the movie studio comment, its weird, i see what your saying, i like all the crux\'s, insignias etc, but i see what your saying, some look like a tourist store. would you like it if they cut down on trinkets and maybe got like better armour detail? or do they look too rounded all over?

 

[Dragonsreach]

Basically loose the banner poles. I really don\'t like them, think they put the mini\'s off balance.
Chaos should look more Baroque to go with the concept of the age of the marines and effects of chaos on the armour.
Don\'t know about all the geegaws & stuff having to be carried. Personal totems, Honours etc I\'ll have to think on that.

 

[vincegamer]

terminators

Firstoff I agree with Steelcult:
How many modern soldiers do you think wear all of their medals on their field fatigues? Probably none.
And flowing robes covering armor? If the armor is for combat purposes, it would be more streamlined. I don\'t mind it though if you are talking a ceremonial uniform, but then you would probably not be in armor.

Terminators:
Okay, no matter how cool they can look, I always try to imagine a human being inside and too often the body would have to be contorted horribly. The shoulders would be so broad they\'d have to be pulled out of their sockets. Also, their mobility would suck. What good is power armor if it rips your own arm off when you try to lift over your head? And speaking of your head, how do you turn to look to the side? Why do you think Star Wars stormtroopers can\'t hit anything they shoot at? They can\'t have any kind of visibility out of those helmets. Try a wrap around eye shield instead of 2 plates for eyes. Imagine Robocop.
I think power armor of the future would have to be very close-fitting to allow maximum mobility and visibility. In that respect I think the regular marines work pretty well (except the helmets and giant shoulder pads maybe).

Well, that turned into more of a rant than I intended.

 

[Jericho]

Well one of the things you aren\'t considering is that the shoulder plates are called \"auto-reactive\" in the fluff because they move to get out of the way of your arm as you move it. The user is hard-wired into his suit of armor so it can tell what he\'s trying to do and use the internal servos and motors to make sure shoulder pads don\'t get in the way.

As far as the little trinkets and extras goes, I think it\'s fine given who they are. These guys are basically genetically and physically enhanced monks. They are highly superstitious, and as such take along all kinds of artefacts for good luck (although they\'d probably call it the Emperor\'s blessing lol).

The only thing that bugs me about the Marines is that they don\'t have a good way of representing how much ammo they carry around. Boltguns only hold 20-30 rounds a piece, and fired on semi- or full-auto that really doesn\'t last. Only a few of the character pieces have the pouches and pockets on the belt that look like they belong.

Oh, I\'m not a big fan of banner poles on characters either. That\'s like wearing a big bullseye on your forehead, inviting a sniper to take you out. Standard bearers are one thing, but banner poles really don\'t belong.

And regarding Terminators? Some of the pictures and models show the helmet being able to pivot at least a little bit in the gaping neckhole in that armor. I\'m sure they\'d use some of that rubberized joint for the neck like they do on the other joints of the armor. Generally speaking they don\'t have to be too articulate anyway, that\'s not what they\'re designed for. They\'re designed for boarding actions and fighting in other enclosed areas... basically just a tank\'s worth of armor and some big guns to fire back with

 

[Errex]

The thing with Space Marines is...

... ,from a painter\'s PoV, that they have either too much detail (terminator honours, badges, robes), or too many flat surfaces (basically, anyone that doesn\'t belong to any of the more iconography-heavy chapters).

And the complaints tend to come also from two very distinct groups of hobbyists, the Painter-Gamer, and the Gamer-Painter.

The PG enjoys working on the over-detailed character minis, while \"suffering\" the duller, simpler models. The GP is the exact opposite. Thing is, the techniques most commonly used by the GP usually fare very poorly on special characters, while the skill of the PG really shines when used on RaF minis.

 

[wightzombie]

hmmmmm....

so far it seems then there is some hemming and hawing bout movement aka it might look cool but not fast, does anyone feel that there is a better designed sci-fi game/minis out there with a emphasis on all sorts of armour aka vest armour, power armour etc? aka is there any competition you feel matches warhammer 40k marines in thier scifi role? i just find it odd that sci-fi is generally very popular, specially in film an tv but why isnt there someone busting gw\'s balls in the sci-fi arena like confrontation? i know target games was doing better and better with warzone redoing the sculpts etc till they went pop! but has gw reached a pintacle with the marines or is there anything better out there but non known?

its funny but i think inquisitor has even upped the detail expectations of gw fans. some of the positions are a bit boring but i really enjoy the details.

 

[Jericho]

I\'m a big fan of the Inquisitor line as well, and I know it has upped some of my expectations The only thing is that the stock models are usually such a total cliche that you have to convert them. Luckily, there are plenty of options available and it\'s always pretty easy to find a solution to your modelling problems

As far as the \"pinnacle\" of sculpting goes, I\'d have to say the new Chaos stuff for Warhammer Fantasy is probably the best. The detail on those models is phenomenal... I picked up about a dozen character models in the last couple months simply because I can\'t wait to mix \'n match parts and paint them up the best I can.

Now all we need is a competent sculptor to make plastic Warriors... Even new pewter ones would be a huge step up from those butt ugly ( :moon: ) old ones.

 

[Sand Rat]

IMHO, I-kore has some better heavy armor designs, and Copplestone Castings has some better near future style armored figures.:]

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

I think the popularity of space marines is partly to do with the fact the games workshop game that has them in is so popular. Secondly they are fighting for humanity (and lets face it everyone likes a \"human\" warrior, and especially ones that are fairly \"hard\" in game terms). Probably their popularity is more to do with the popularity of the warhammer 40k game rather than them being particularly spectacular models. Saying that however I have a Legion of the Damned space marine army and I think they look pretty cool.

You have to take the whole huge armour thing with a pinch of salt. Yeah probably you couldn\'t fight in a suit like that, but hey anyone seen an elf or a dragon, and secondly if dragons existed I doubt they could fly if they were built like most are.... I suppose you have got to think along the lines of .... these suits of armour were made what 40,000 years in the future or something like that. Who knows if they were just like soldiers today would people say \"oh they are cool\" and buy them, or would they say \"oh that\'s not very original\". Jericho also has a good point regarding \"auto-reactive\" armour.

As for your question wightzombie, you would do well to create a popular game to go with any minatures you create. Then you need to let as many people as possible hear about your game.... I had never heard of Rackham, I-Kore or any other minature companies until I found this site... Is it therefore any wonder I bought space marines???? lol

 

[Jericho]

Hehe

The fluff is probably another big factor, not just market saturation. In the fiction tied into the game Space Marines are the stuff of legends. Any regular human who sees them for the first time, including hardened IG Veterans, are in speechless awe at that first encounter.

I think everyone wants a piece of that.

 

[Badaab]

Space Marine Design

Alrighty...
First off, One man is responsible for the Space Marine range, its GW that fronts the cash for the distribution and manufacturing. Jes Goodwin has developed the look of the Space Marines (And most of the 40k universe) since joining GW in the mid-1980\'s. So don\'t give really anyone else credit, Jes deserves all the praise.

The Space Marine range is one of the most adaptable and diverse ranges in production, and probably in the history of fantasy/sci-fi wargaming models. Every plastic kit, be it Space Marine, or Chaos Space Marine that\'s currently in production is compatable with the other (and in the case of the bike, with a few tweaks it works).
As for the painting and asthetic issues, it all comes down to what you enjoy painting. Personally, I can\'t stand to paint elves, or GW\'s fantasy figures. I prefer Reaper\'s stuff, because each model is an individual. This is the same reason why I like 40K. Squad members are still individuals, not one of 25 or so that sit in a little row.
And, to those that don\'t like painting Marines, it\'s probably because you can\'t do it well. No offense, but painting large, flat plates of armor well is an acquired technique. I use wet-blending on every single Marine, from scouts, to tactical squad members, to commanders. And every model is uniquely posed or detailed. Hand-painting Space Marine insignias make the model that much more impressive.
Anyways, enough rambling and stuff. I like Space Marines, I\'ve played them for going on 10 years now, and will continue to field them because I enjoy the look of the army, not because of their rules (although that\'s a plus... but I play an Ultramarines based chapter, not some cheddar).
Joe

 

[Jericho]

I liked everything you had to say up until the \"cheddar\" part. I can\'t stand it when people get focussed too much on winning games. It\'s supposed to be about enjoying the hobby aspect and having fun with your buddies more than anything

 

[Badaab]

Hey, I play as an excuse to see some painted mins on the table, not win games...

Going to a Grand Tournament for me is about winning the best painted award... I mean, how often do you see the winner of the best general award have their army featured in WD? lol

Joe

 

[sam-man]

What your all forgetting is, the little trinkets and robes etc etc... are pretty much for the table top. To easily distinguish which model is command, squad leader, or what ever the hell he is. The little details and trinkets are primarily for show and distinction....

 

[vincegamer]

individuals

First I\'ll say I have read very little of the fluff (only the stuff that\'s in the Space Hulk and Deathwing rulebooks) and never played 40k. I still have some marines, because I think they are cool for painting.
Badaab said something I just want to emphasize. Each marine is an indvidual. All I have is some Terms and the old beaky box, but each of my minis is individually dinamically posed and even slightly customized. The adaptability of the minis is a great selling point for me. Oh, I have the figs that came in the space marine paint set, but they are still on the sprues. They are just blocks and don\'t inspire me to have at them.

 

[Lurch]

Individual? Gimme a break
Look on the site here to see the individuality on a space marine:
Arm up..
Arm down...
one hand weapon
one giant claw.
What color armor on my forty guys seems to be the most in\"duh\" vidual thing about them.

Dont get me wrong here. I dont mind looking at a few marines, but as far as being individuals? I couldnt tell one persons marines from anothers.

 

[Hezrou]

Most points have been coverd. My major problem with marines are banner poles. I hate them, completely useless on the battle field and a sure way of attracting every round fired at yourself. Cloaks/tabards I can forgive given that knights wore them for decoration and identification. Pretty much the smaller details are ok to why wouldn\'t these marines show how many times they have been honoured.

Power armour What can I say but it is always going to be large (servos, power pack, computers and armour). No point having armour made out of tissue paper is it???

What I would like to see from GW is more variety in the way armour looks.
I love the Mk6 armour (old beaky) and would like to be able to add parts of the armour to current version.

Who is to say that every chapter would have the most up to date armour always.

 

[wightzombie]

so far....

my guy looks like something a spawn from inquisitor meets soul saga the comic book. something hezrou said rang with me which is kinda liking the old look and somehow transfering it over to the new a bit. maybe just armour thats been updated over the years, but still retains that near medieval quality. ill post a link sometime once i flesh out the pic more. i really like shoulder pads but i have to work it in a medieval way so that they function properly. some of the space marines paintings or statues from forgeworld show this pretty well also.