A question of talent

[sivousplay]

There are a lot of skills to develop, but once you have them, it\'s time to develop your own style and I think that is a lot of what \"it\" is.

\"It\" doesn\'t have to be what will win you trophies or let your minis sell for lots of $ on ebay (those can be nice side effects of having \"it\"), but \"it\" really has to be what makes you happy and proud of what you\'ve done and excited about picking up a brush again and again (and generally copying other folks won\'t do that).

For the longest time I could not make the miniatures look the way I wanted them to look ... now, I can and I\'m much more interested in painting what I want, the way I want.

Now that I have the toolbox that I feel I need, I will slowly improve here or there as I try some new things, but honestly, I\'m more to the point of making the finished product (be it a large scale piece, a diorama, or a mini) look the way I want.

Once you get to that point, I think you have \"it\" whether your scores or trophy count justify \"it\" or not.

jim

 

[Equus]

@ Becca - Being intimidated is easy in just about any artistic endeavor. I think what sivousplay is talking about helps a lot in overcoming that. Doing what you want to do because you want to do it goes a long way...you think a lot less about what other people think or how you measure up when you\'re having a grand old time doing what you love. If I ever let the idea of not being a good actor stop me and didn\'t enjoy doing theatre, I wouldn\'t have finished my degree or be doing stuff still. Granted, running around with a theatre degree may not be a GOOD thing, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

@ Sturmhalo - Thanks! Now if I could be more idealistic about MYSELF, life would be good!

 

[monolith]

I think that there\'s bound to be plateaus in anyone\'s quest to improve at anything. Some of them may be self imposed, others may be simply because of talent. I try to improve on every single model I paint. Each and every miniature I finish is my best work. Untill the next one. And then the one after that. My friends tell me I\'m talented, mainly because of how long it\'s taken me to improve (ie, not very long), but I\'d like to think that there was some hard work and research involved.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Certainly, hard work and research can improve one\'s work, but I do think there are those with \"it\" and those without. Painting techniques can be mastered; however, I think some folks just have an innate \"sense\" that guides them to the next level. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. It is the human condition. I don\'t think everyone has the capability of doing everything to a certain level and it is just a matter of desire to reach it. No matter how hard I practice, I could never be (or have been) an Olympic athlete. Then again, there are probably some Olympians that will never paint as well as me!

 

[JakeSh]

Well put wiccanpony. I don\'t paint to please others, I paint to please myself. I paint in an outdated style, mainly painting old and outdated minis. I want a cabinet full of sweet painted minis so someday when I have a little rugrat they can appreciate them, and even play with them if they are good.

I used to want to paint to win a Demon, but screw that. I don\'t need somebody else\'s validation to puff up my ego. It irks me to see people going to every Games Day and winning several Golden Demons, and even several Slayer Swords. You proved you are one of the best, now step aside and let someone else have a go. Ehh... sorry, I don\'t want to go on a rant.

Anyways, I want my own style, and I feel I\'m coming close to the \"Jake\" mini, which is a clean, blacklined, cartoony style. I have a bit more work to really achieve the effect I want, but I can\'t complain about where I\'m at. I\'d love to see 9\'s out of my stuff, but I don\'t see that happening, mainly because its not technically briliant, or full of overdone wankery. The greatest feel is being told \"Wow, you made crappy minis look good,\" or \"I like your style.\"

 

[Margo]

That\'s an interesting topic. My personal opinion is that yes, miniature artists can indeed reach their top level and not be able to go above it.

But! There are so many levels of this hobby that it would take a loo-o-t of time to reach the upmost levels in everything. First, I think, people work hard to get their technique right. Then, there\'s also conversions and sculpting. Also, a great deal of importante to me is to learn how to work with different color schemes, learn to match colors and such. What else ... basing, dioramas, freehand, and many other things.

So, in my opinion, in theory -- yes, you can reach your top level and stop evolving as an artist. In practise -- it will take a whole lot of time to do it.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Originally posted by ipaintminis
i think you can get as good as you want to be...

rackham is a certain style, i don\'t know if its possible for all painters to achieve that style, but i do know that each of us don\'t have a glass ceiling because there isn\'t one in this hobby...

with patience and effort we each can achieve things unimaginable because we are each different


*gets off soapbox*

I don\'t know about that. A lot of people are, to use an old phrase, dick-fingered. It\'s a skill and not everyone can operate to any degree of proficiency in a particular skill just because of hard work. Some people just don\'t have the knack. I point to the late, great R Lobinske who, it seems, was a painter of many years of experience, but he still made everything look like crap. he knew what he was talking about, but he couldn\'t/can\'t paint for love nor money lol

It\'s a skill, and some have a natural leaning towards it, many others don\'t.

Sorry Becca! :innocent:

 

[airhead]

Practice can overcome talent to a certain point. If I could paint for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week (ok, 7) then I would improve. Would I ever paint a 9.5+? I think that there is a certain ingrained something that some of us have that lets us excell in a certain area.

I used to shoot pretty good until my eyes couldn\'t focus on the sights and the target at the same time. Some guys could come to the range and shoot at 200 yards almost instinctually. Others could spend all day out there at the range and miss the broad side of the barn at 50 feet.

The question is, is mini painting a talent or a skill? I propose it is a bit of both, but skill can take you only so far. Talent alone is no good either. Look at any of the top artist\'s early work. Skill coupled with talent can take you much further than either alone.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by airhead
The question is, is mini painting a talent or a skill? I propose it is a bit of both, but skill can take you only so far. Talent alone is no good either. Look at any of the top artist\'s early work. Skill coupled with talent can take you much further than either alone.

It is definately a bit of both. Your shooting analogy is **ahem** dead on. People can be technically precise but still miss that instinct you are talking about.

It\'s the same \'unknown\' quality I was discussing before.

 

[darthfoley]

I know I personally have close to zero talent, but I\'ve managed to scrape by with just keeping my nose to the grindstone.

 

[absolutrudy]

wow

When I posed this question, I never thought I\'d get this type of response.

I apologize if this should have been in one of the other forums.

My opinion is that there are some innate gifts that some have and some don\'t. But I also think that with ALOT of time, practice, and patience, you\'ll get to a level of painting where when you look at one of your finished minis you\'ll say, \"wow, that\'s perfect.!\"

Striving to be better is why I sit down at my painting table as much as possible, and where I\'m at now, I feel like I have a lot more to learn and there\'s no ceiling on that.

Thanks for all the great posts!

 

[EricJ]

ok, how about a new theory - There is no mystrious \"it\"

I\'ve heard before than some of my minis display that \"it\" but I honestly think I was not born with any of this \"it\" in me. My artwork for a long time was stiff and uncomfortable, even when I got technically acceptable, it was always less \"good\" than those around me.

So I start thinking hard about why. Because at my heart I\'m a very competative person

With some photography classes mixed in there to help develop my sense of color, tone, and shape, I started to get an intelectual understanding of what \"it\" was, rather than \"feeling\" it.

Now I look at a miniature and understand where I should put colors, or how to use the tonal range and shapes in order to achieve the result and even emotional reaction I\'m aiming for. Of course I\'m far far from perfect at this, but I feel I am developing an understanding of it, rather than letting an inherent \"it\" out from somewhere deep inside.

Now like anything else learned, some people learn faster than others, and maybe that\'s more of the \"it\" than anything else. But I propose that \"it\" is learned, not inherent.



haha, however I\'m not married to this point of view, mostly trying to play devils advocate here

 

[Equus]

Originally posted by EricJ
haha, however I\'m not married to this point of view, mostly trying to play devils advocate here

Out of his own mouth! He\'s eviiiiiil! Just kidding.

With all the respect I can muster, I have to disagree with Margo\'s opinion. I don\'t think there\'s a terminal point above which you cannot work, unless that point is way up somewhere in the stratosphere. Maybe the central point of contention here is that she seems to be talking about multiple areas within the art, while I have a tendency to see all of the parts as a sum.

@ darthfoley - With all due respect, you\'re a liar. lol You\'ve got your fair bit of talent there too. No doubt mixed in with a healthy dose of elbow grease, but it\'s there.

@ Eric - I would tend to agree with you. There are certain aptitudes, without a doubt, but I don\'t think you\'re just born with it. For example, here\'s two of the definitions for \"talent\":

3 : the natural endowments of a person
4 a : a special often creative or artistic aptitude b : general intelligence or mental power

Now #3, as far as artistry goes, I am very uncertain about. #4a and b however, are different. It doesn\'t necesarilly mean you are BORN with them, but that they can be learned or integrated into you. The almost intuitive understanding of a concept after learning about it and practicing it long enough also IS talent, IMO.

OK...now I\'m rambling so I\'ll stop.

 

[Duende]

I think this thread is a behavioralist\'s playground. So it basically breaks down to, is \"talent\" something that can be learned or is it innate? Don\'t forget the myriad of other factors that come into play. Some people don\'t have the same drive to do better or eagerness to learn. If it\'s a learned thing, what about who teaches them?

I\'d like to post more on this, but it will have to be later, when I\'m more awake. I\'d only like to add that I also disagree with Margo, the only limit on people\'s abilities are ones they place on themselves.

More pondering later, I need sleep!

:duh:

 

[No Such Agency]

I think my performance as a painter is limited mainly by my laziness. I have the 1% inspiration (most days), it\'s the 99% perspiration that I need to work on. And since I am a lazy bugger in many other aspects of my life and seem unable to change, I doubt it will happen here... Will I ever be able to paint as well as Victoria, or Alexi, Eric, Margo, Cyril etc? Likely not - I know that level of quality requires painstaking effort. Will I be able to improve on my current abilities? I sure hope so.

 

[SaxonAngel]

We all have room to improve.

I think one can always improve as long as there is something that can be learned. It just takes work.
The Rackham style is very specific. If we all trained ourselves long enough we could paint at that level. But not everyone can afford to immerse themselves that much into the hobby.

And the real beauty about people painting in different styles is the sheer variety of mind blowing stuff out there that doesn\'t look like a Rackham painted figure at all. And some are ...ahem... better, IMHO. And I\'m not mentioning names because they might think I like their stuff or something. [size=-3]Fredy, Alexi_z, Bragon, Phillipe, Haley to name a few...[/size]



Everyone is talented at something, if not actually many more things than they are aware of.
To imply something being innate means that is it something you are born with. That\'s called a gift.
If truly gifted people are fortunate enough to evolve in an environment that supports them, they can literally change that part of our world.
Mozart had a gift, DaVinci had a gift.


And that\'s just my opinionated two cents about it.
[size=-1]And it\'s probably totally wrong too.[/size]:

 

[monolith]

Does it finally come down to a question of innate talent versus committment? I\'m sure that there\'s artistsa out there who never really studied, who had it all come naturally to them. I\'m also sure that there\'s artists who had to learn everything from the ground up. It seems like there\'s always room for improvement.

For instance, I can\'t do NMM. I\'ve read everything I can about the subject, but I just can\'t pull it off. I look at minis with world class NMM on them every day, and I still can\'t figure it out.

Now, I\'m doing a captain lysander for Golden demon. It\'s my first entry, and I plan to do him in NMM, with some Sky-Earth thrown in for good measure. I\'ll have to learn how to do it, or otherwise break out the boltgun. It\'s a challenge, and one I feel I can do. My point is this; If i pull it off and it works, what part of me did it? the talent, or the willingness to work at it? Is talent on it\'s own worth anything without the dedication to work hard at implementing it?

 

[Sturmhalo]

At the end of the day it\'s a hobby and who cares how good anyone is at anything? What counts is that people enjoy what they do. How many times have we heard of people on here thinking they\'re all depressed simply because they\'ve lost the enjoyment of their hobby? It\'s a hobby and it doesn\'t really matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[monolith]

Amen to that. Right now, I\'d love to paint minis for a living, but once I started, I\'d probably hate it.

 

[Alexi_Z]

Originally posted by monolith
Amen to that. Right now, I\'d love to paint minis for a living, but once I started, I\'d probably hate it.

Hmm... What do you do for living now?