A Rant: What do I have to do for an eight around here?

[Lurch]

Chrispy, you probably are expecting my pat answer to all questions based on ratings that I use about once a month here. Most of you already know what it says and certainly, most of it still applies in this case.. but here\'s the funny part...
I agree with you!
Some Minis here are rated based upon the artists ability with Photo Shop.. not painting ability.
In fact, I could probably go through some of the top minis and tell you where touch ups were made, edges smoothed, etc. They are not that hard to spot. For those of us who show their minis in their full glory, or dont digitally manipulate the photo, 8 and above are going to be next to impossible.
Even fantastic minis shown in their full glory will be downgraded based on the fact that the photo was not manipulated. See Saxon Angel\'s latest Dwarf (7.6 at the time of this writing)or Valten Champion (8.8) and your tell me that these are less than 9 work? Less than any work by Jen Haley? Sorry, but I PREFER to see the mini rather than the photo, thank you very much!

I also have one more bone to pick here with a statement that was made.

Quote from RHerneson
this crowd is not the same as some of the cro-mags at your local hobby store that swear primer is a color, these are the people that have the stones to put their work up for public comment, the guys who not only have been told they are good but think that they are good enough, too. No chumps here.

Hmm.. my local shop has multiple Deamon winners who hold painting classes almost on a weekly basis. SOME of them even post here.
And quite frankly, their opinion means more to me than my rank here. I know its not based on what brand of mini I painted, or if my mini is better ranked than any of theirs. Also they give me comments on how to improve and compliment the work I do.
As a matter of fact, if it werent for the \"Cro-mags\" at my local shop, I probably would have already been disheartened by MY latest minis who are taking a beating despite being my best work.
People here can be downright cruel on their opinions and do NOTHING to encourage those in the middle to lower ranks. Ask yourselves the last time you commented, or even tried to rate on a 5? 6?
Even your best has over 400 views and only 74 votes. ( And is very under rated, BTW!)
Now dont get me wrong. I love this site. I browse here for a quite a bit of my free time (and work time too but don\'t tell my boss!) I have met some great people here! (VLRM, Saxon,) But really, if I thought about my ratings, or depended on this site to encourage my painting abilities, I would\'ve quit a long time ago!
To that end, I\'d like to THANK Patrick Chambers and the other \"Cro-Mags \" at Table-Top Games in Lenexa, KS for both encouraging me to get better, teaching me new techniques and fueling my enthusiasm for this hobby!


note:
I edited this entry to say \"some\" where I said \"most\" before. I do not think that to have a top score you must manipulate your photo, but I do think that many do.

 

[kevd82]

I agree with Lurch to a point, that image quality impacts ratings. I admit to having little knowledge of what can or cannot be done with Photoshop, all I have is a cheap, basic shareware type program. But I have a hard time believing that images like that of Jason Richards, Cyril, Jen Haley, etc. are purely the result of imaging software. To me, that kind of smooth blending is where 8 ratings begin. And the images we are discussing do not show that level of smoothness. But as you said, it would be better to see the actual miniature. The only way to truly \"see\" a miniature is in person.

As for the local crowd comment, i would say you are lucky to have the support group you have Lurch. I actually placed third in a local contest with a miniature that is a 5.6 on this site, a rating I agree with. So that shows you the lack of talent/knowledge in my area. I think a great many of us are surrounded by painters who have no idea what is possible in a paintjob.

 

[Jenova]

MOST Minis here are rated based upon the artists ability with Photo Shop.. not painting ability.

In fact, I could probably go through most of the top minis and tell you where touch ups were made, edges smoothed, etc. They are not that hard to spot. For those of us who show their minis in their full glory, or dont digitally manipulate the photo, 8 and above are going to be next to impossible.

??? ??? ???

I must admit I find this comment quite offensive. Are you saying that minis rated above 8 are manipulated? I have several minis rated over 8. The only things I ever edit are the size of the picture and the brightness. Does that make me a cheater?

I have heard the comment about people editing pics lots of time, but I have only ever been shown one example.

I agree that the pic is important, but I seriously doubt that anyone of the regular users of this site would manipulate their pics to get better ratings? For us selling our paintjobs it would also be a disaster. People who buy minis usually expect the paintjob to look better in person than on the pic

 

[GunjiNoKanrei]

I agree with Jenova.
I have heard the claim several times and while I do have some (basic) knowledge about Photoshop and editing pictures I fail to see what others are obviously seeing.

Also where does manipulating start? Is it okay to adjust colors and and levels or is that already manipulating?
Besides trimming the image I do auto-levels and colors because it more closely resembles how the mini looks in real live but does nothing to improve the quality of the paintjob as those who have seen my minis with their own eyes can attest.
To me manipulating pictures is totally besides the purpose. I want to improve as a painter and don\'t want to be (silently) known as a Photoshop expert.


A little more on topic I can only agree with what most people have said about Chrispy\'s work. You can see the painting get better from mini to mini. Often the rating suffers from picture quality though IMHO.

BTW, I think the Emperors Champion with the blue light is one of the best versions of this difficult technique I have seen so far and is an easy 9 in my book.
The GD Ork Warboss looks great too. I really like the checker pattern and the subdued look to it. sadly the pic is a bit washed out

Hey Chrispy, just keep the minis (and articles ) coming. You are doing a great job

 

[supervike]

the secret how to technique

So, I could just buy photoshop and become an 8+ painter overnight?

Why am I working so hard at trying to improve!!

lol

 

[Dragonsreach]

Whoa this one is getting out of hand here! There are some allegations being cast around which is not in the spirit of this site.

If people are editing the pictures in Photoshop then there would be some serious amount of work being done. Even with my limited knowledge of Photoshop I suspect that the alerations would be highly evident and as an example I\'m going to try to improve a mini in Photoshop and then repost it (and of course come clean about it!).

Normally the only thing I do is to adjust layers. I\'m only vaugely aware of one or two special effects being used. But they have not in my opinion added to the score of the mini.

I stand by my comment which has been quoted by Tuubje.

 

[Chrispy]

I plead Insanity, your honors...

Okay, I\'l admit I use Photoshop.. but before you get out Madame Gullitoune, lemme say this: I\'ve never used it on any of my posted fig\'s paint jobs.

My digital camera takes dark pics, even with 2 lights on the min, so of course I used Brightness/Contrast. I also notice for some wierd reason, the pics come out slightly brownish yellow (must be the white balance) so I used the Colo Balance. Also, recently, I noticed some marks on my background and rather than do the whole picture taking over agin, I used the Heal tool to tak them out. However, I realisize this tool can be used for Evil. It could smooth out grainy paint jobs, for example.

Most people think that it takes one little thing to set me off, but the fact is it just builds and builds and that one thing sets me over the edge.

For example, everyone poked fun at my Inq Deathwatch marine and I had had problems from the start and finish on that. However, I just kept my cool and I didn\'t say anything. Until now. I\'m just so fed up with it, I deleted it. That, and I few others (including the newest).

In fact, I\'m going to be selling my old armies because I don\'t like them and I don\'t have any use for them, anyways.

 

[Lurch]

Jenova, under no circumstances would I ever accuse you of manipulating your photos or stating that your work here is not above an 8 . Please note my use of the word \"most\".. (in fact I should probably change that to \"some\") and I certainly never used your name specifically. I meant no offense to anyone as a matter of fact.

Now that being said, where DO we make the distinction between fixing a photo and manipulating it?
Is fixing the color to match the mini ok? Do we stop there or can we just go ahead and lighten it up to a different shade? Hey I have a brush stroke which at eye level doesnt show up but when photographed, stands out like a sore thumb. Do I edit it out? How far can I take it?
Now, without hard evidence I probably could not say with certainty that a change has been made or not, but I can definetely have my suspicions based upon previous photo editing I have seen.
And THAT was the intent of my original point. Many entries here are edited within an inch of their lives. Some of them are so bad they look less like a photo and more like an illustration. I am sure you have seen them.
And as far as auctions or sales are concerned how many times have we heard of a buyer that has been dissapointed with a purchase they have made via EBAY or some other route? I personally hear of them all the time. In fact I could probably find a few rants in the forums about it ( Not yours of course Jenova, but you have to admit it does happen.) This is all I\'m saying.
Once again sorry if you took offense. My skill at expressing a message appears to need some work...

 

[Jenova]

Lurch, don\'t worry, I see what you mean now

I was just getting a little upset because I though you implied that most of the blending here is made on the computer and not on the mini.....

 

[freakinacage]

i\'m sorry guys i\'m just gonna have to say RELAX!! i know it\'s awfull to see your pride and joy knocked down but in the long run it\'s what you think that matters

also id like to say a big SHAME ON YOU to anyone who deliberately vote down miniatures. whether its because you dont like the mini or the armour is the wrong shade.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Yeh, come on guys...

It\'s only a lump of metal with paint on it after all...

So what\'s the fuss?

He he he lol

Rev :moon:

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally by Reverend

It\'s only a lump of metal with paint on it after all...

..............Argh sacrilege!!!

Phil, Have you been talking to my wife?

Lurch:

Many entries here are edited within an inch of their lives.

Sorry to add fuel to the flames but I must take task with you Lurch out of 15000+ minis I don\'t believe that there are that many which have been edited as much as you believe. If you want to point out any you believe are as badly altered, please send a personal message with the link cos I\'d be inrterested to view and compare our opinion.

 

[supervike]

BACK to work....

So buying photoshop is NOT going to make me a 8+ painter?

I knew it was too good to be true.

I guess I better get my brushes back out and keep working at it!lollol

 

[Sturmhalo]

Hmm... this whole thing about improving minis through Photoshop really does rub me up the wrong way!

I normally have to alter the brightness, contrast, and maybe colour saturation slightly just to get the picture to resemble the actual mini as best I can. When you photograph a mini and then scan the image there can be a lot of image degradation. Colours can wash out and the like. I don\'t consider these alterations to be cheating in anyway.

A number of pics on CMON have had the mini image cut out and pasted onto a nice clean backdrop. Once again in my opinion this is irrelevant. Most manufacturers use this technique anyway. It just makes for a good clean image.

Someone said that to get an 8 or higher without manipulating the image is nigh on impossible! Well I have to disagree! I have a number of minis here rated in the low to mid 8\'s and it is a bit insulting to have people make suggestions that the quality of the paint jobs might be enhanced in some way (apart from re-correcting the colour balance perhaps). The only way you can get close to that much sought after 10 is to do a damn fine fine job on a bloody good model!

 

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Sturmhalo, I completely agree. I see things the same way (only difference is I don\'t have minis in the 8\'s, but that is another story... ).

Adjusting brightness to resemble the actual paintjob is ok but altering paint jobs in PhotoShop or other similar programms is not right. Besides I can\'t understand why people would do this since they have no chance to grow as painters.

 

[supervike]

a bit of sarcasm

I completely agree with you Sturmhalo.

Hopefully, my attempts at sarcastic humor were taken as such.

I don\'t think photoshop would turn a turd into a rose, no matter how adept the user was.

Of course, I could be completely off base, I have never used it, and don\'t even know what it is capable of.

But like Jenova mentioned earlier, if the painter is making a living off painting even just wanting to participate in Painting competitions, photoshop wouldn\'t help in the slightest.

 

[Lurch]

Wow.. I seem to have stirred a hornets nest somehow..
Seems alot of people are taking my comments personally and I\'m not real sure why.. I have even retracted parts of my statements and still this issue seems to be a hotbed..

I think at this point, noting my previous statements and retractions if you are still affronted, you must ask YOURSELF why?
Why does this issue strike each of you so strongly? Did you somehow see me pointing a finger at you specifically? Do you not believe someone would have the audacity to do this?

Many of you speak about how the rankings dont matter, and yet if someone states that SOME of the ranks might be inflated due to editing their photo and some of you get really mad. If the rank doesnt matter, and no one has attacked you personally, why CARE what I think or believe?

Those of you on this board know I have alot of thoughts about why a mini might be rated high or low. I have mentioned quite a few of them in my cut and paste diatribe so many of you have read.. This issue is one of many, yet seems to be making the most people mad.. Why is that?

Why say these are only a \"lump of metal,\" then \"take issue\" with me?

In fact why worry what I think at all.
From here on out I retract all my statements..
You all are right. Its ok to admit to using Photoshop to lighten a pic or change the contrast, or make the color look more like real life, but NO ONE uses it to make their minis stand out to get a better rating! That would not be ethical.

Ohh and no one is voting on their own minis to get a highter rating..

and no one is using lowere votes on others entries to give other minis a lower value than their own.

And no one takes credit for minis they did not paint here.

and everyone gives comments and encourages up and coming artists who want to get better. Thats why all those minis rated 5 and below have so many votes vs views and 20 to 30 comments on each one...

 

[frenchkid]

cooool man


Hey calm down. This site is meant to have a good time talking about a hobby we share. And I frankly believe that, will it is always good to have the point of view of people that share our hobby, nothing should take away the pride we have of the paintjob we did on that last mini. Has for all those cheaters and such I don\'t mind them just because I don\'t see how they could take away the plesure I take in painting, or the plesur I take in seeing all those great ang original piece of art displayed on this site. And for those of you who are going to say that I don\'t have any of my minis up on this site well that\'s not my fault I would love to but all the pictures I have tried so far where a blurry mess

 

[Beelzebrush]

@ Lurch - I think you need a holiday mate.

 

[supervike]

a hotbed?

I think the only reason this has become a \'hotbed\' is that it is such a provocative issue.

You have raised some good points Lurch, and I see no need to retract them.

If we all had the exact same opinion, the discussion forums would be rather boring.

Sadly, I think some of the stuff you mention probably does happen. AND, it is interesting to talk about it in the forum.