Air guns= Bad??

[supervike]

Originally posted by Ogrebane

Having a gun causes more problems than it will solve. I hope we never become like the states where every one owns a gun. At least with out one you have the chance to settle down before doing something stupid.

I certainly understand your point of view, but not EVERYONE in the states owns a gun. They don\'t sell them on the street corner, and we aren\'t issued one with our drivers license. Legal gun owners follow a whole list of laws to get one. People convicted of any sort of domestic battery charge can\'t even BORROW a gun, let alone own one.

I won\'t be foolish enough to say guns solve problems...but you are mixing violent acts with gun ownership...they are two seperate topics. I know tons of people...fine citizens that own guns. They are not violent people, they don\'t wave their guns around at the first sign of trouble. People are murdered here in the states with other instruments, and I\'ll wager there has been a death or two that way in your neck of the woods.

I am confused about something. Do your gun control laws forbid people from owning shotguns, rifles and hunting guns? Don\'t people hunt wild game in your country at all?

 

[Ogrebane]

Yep people do own shot guns and go hunting and we have had the odd death or two from shooting but its not so easy to get hold of weapons here.

Gee I thought everyone was issued with a gun on thier 16th birthday along with there drivers licence. Oh well I better go chase the kangeroos out of my back yard then before someone comes and shoots em up.

 

[millboy]

Hey whats up. this is my first post. i usually just lurk around. But back to the main topic of this thread. Airsoft guns, right? well, ive gotten shot in the face from point blank one time. my friend was mishandling a pistol and it shot off in my face. it blew out my bottom tooth. the root was exposed!! it hurt like crap. i had to get a root canal done and get it replaced. so that pretty much proves how freakin powerful these things can be.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

To watch TV and the news you\'d think it was open warfare here. I have been here 44 years and have NEVER heard a gun fired in anger, other than a pitbull getting pasted. The whole America/gun thing can appear rather cartoonish if you only go off what the TV and news paper shows.

 

[Ogrebane]

Your probably (well more like actually) right. the only thing we know of America if we aint been there is what we see on TV.

Same as us Ozzies have roos jumping round our back yards. Suffice it to say I am happy with the gun laws in Oz and dont expect to get exterminated anytime soon by my government.

Having said that I will defend the right to someone dissagreeing with me. And I still think any weopon in the hands if children (Someone younger than 40) is a bad thing.

 

[paintingploddy]

So let me get this right - none of you appear to have heard a gun go off in anger, but you must have them so you can blow away these whack jobs if they do turn up on your door step with these guns. Sorry i don\'t get it. I feel safe in my own home and I know quite well what goes on out there. I\'ve spent the last twelve years of my life cleaning it up.

Oh and guns aren\'t totally gone down here. Just today I came across a bloke with a loaded shotgun by the front door for \"self defence\" and yes it was an illegal weapon. We\'re turning them up more regularly and starting to find them more often in random car checks.

 

[airhead]

Originally posted by paintingploddy
So let me get this right - none of you appear to have heard a gun go off in anger, but you must have them so you can blow away these whack jobs if they do turn up on your door step with these guns. Sorry i don\'t get it. I feel safe in my own home and I know quite well what goes on out there. I\'ve spent the last twelve years of my life cleaning it up.

Oh and guns aren\'t totally gone down here. Just today I came across a bloke with a loaded shotgun by the front door for \"self defence\" and yes it was an illegal weapon. We\'re turning them up more regularly and starting to find them more often in random car checks.

My understanding is that only semi-autos were banned in Oz. Pump, lever action, revolvers, etc. were still legal (maybe require some sort of permit?).

Most of the \"in anger\" shots around here are the ones that are not supposed to have guns to start with - gang bangers & drive bys.

Those legally carrying fireams are some of the safest and least likely to cause any sort of incident other than self-defense. The courses required before issuing a permit stress the situations that are and are not legal to pull your weapon.

Originally posted by Ogrebane
If you think you are safe just because you have the right to bere arms then you are fooling yourself. If you read the stats more people are killed by guns from people they know than by strangers (Not including war)

No delusions here. I know exactly what I can do with a gun. Safe? never absolutely. Safer? In a few bad situations - yes.

As to the stats, a little quote from John R. Lott, Jr., Law & Economics Fellow at University of Chicago School of Law:

Myth No. 2: Friends or relatives are the most likely killers.
The myth is usually based on two claims: 1) 58 percent of murder victims are killed by either relatives or acquaintances and 2) anyone could be a murderer.

With the broad definition of \"acquaintances\" used in the FBI\'s Uniform Crime Reports, most victims are indeed classified as knowing their killer. However, what is not made clear is that acquaintance murder primarily includes drug buyers killing drug pushers, cabdrivers killed by first-time customers, gang members killing other gang members, prostitutes killed by their clients, and so on. Only one city, Chicago, reports a precise breakdown on the nature of acquaintance killings: between 1990 and 1995 just 17 percent of murder victims were either family members, friends, neighbors and/or roommates.

Murderers also are not your average citizen. For example, about 90 percent of adult murderers have already had a criminal record as an adult. Murderers are overwhelmingly young males with low IQs and who have difficult times getting along with others. Furthermore, unfortunately, murder is disproportionately committed against blacks and by blacks.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by paintingploddy
So let me get this right - none of you appear to have heard a gun go off in anger, but you must have them so you can blow away these whack jobs if they do turn up on your door step with these guns. Sorry i don\'t get it. Oh and guns aren\'t totally gone down here. Just today I came across a bloke with a loaded shotgun by the front door for \"self defence\" and yes it was an illegal weapon. We\'re turning them up more regularly and starting to find them more often in random car checks.

Two points...its not that we MUST have guns...I said before, i don\'t have one...but we MUST be allowed to have them. Yes, that is true.

The last point is from your last sentence...random car checks? So, someone can be detained and searched for no apparent reason? That\'s chilling.

 

[Ritual]

@supervike
I don\'t know how the situation in Australia is, but what we mean by \"random car check\" here is that the police stop cars and check that people have drivers\' license. In those car checks a lot of stolen cars get discovered or people act suspiciously (try to avoid being stopped, appear stoned or drunk, etc.) and in those cases the police search the car. I expect the US Police do the same.

 

[vincegamer]

No, they do not do the same.
Police cannot stop someone unless they have have a reasonable belief that the person has just committed a crime.
Even then, they cannot search the vehicle unless they actually saw the person commit the crime.
A search incident to a lawful arrest is limited to the armspan of the person in the car (no searching the trunk).

Okay, as to hearing guns go off in anger.
One new-years-eve at 11:00 we heard a couple of loud bangs. Well, we were in Oklahoma, so it was midnight in New York, so we figured someone had lit some firecrackers... until the blood soaked woman came baning on our front door. Turns out the guy across the street shot two of his party guests.

The only person I know in person who owns guns is my father in law. He has a collection of WWII era rifles locked in a display case and as far as I know has no amunition.

 

[Ritual]

@vince
Stealing a car is a crime, driving under influence is a crime and avoiding a drivers\' license control is a crime.

 

[supervike]

But...the Police don\'t just get to stop people willy nilly. If they have a suspiscion to stop you (and that can be pretty thin sometimes) they can and will. Stopping you for no reason and then finding a reason goes beyond the scope of law enforcement.

I will say, though, I have been through police \'safety checks\'...where they lined cars up as they came on the road under the guise of \'checking seatbelts\'. These such stops have created much furor here
people compare it to a \'Nazi paper check\'. I haven\'t seen them do it again for several years...but that doesn\'t mean they don\'t.

I just think we have a real underlying distrust of most government agencies...especially when they seem so \'concerned\' with our safety.

 

[Ritual]

In Sweden license checks are legal, and no one complains about it. It is also not an excuse to get to search cars (even though as a side effect many crimes get solved or prevented in the process), but a necessary thing to prevent people driving too fast and breaking other traffic rules. It\'s not like they stop every single car, just the ones that drive too fast or too recklessly.

 

[philologus]

As far as the gun control arguement goes: It seems to me that many of the advocates of restricting/removing firearm rights are influenced by the 20th/21st century concept that we should elevate \"peace\" (read here absence of conflict) above all else. Including goodness and self-preservation.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Ritual
In Sweden license checks are legal, and no one complains about it. It is also not an excuse to get to search cars (even though as a side effect many crimes get solved or prevented in the process), but a necessary thing to prevent people driving too fast and breaking other traffic rules. It\'s not like they stop every single car, just the ones that drive too fast or too recklessly.

Ah...then really it isn\'t too different after all. The police would have a reasonable cause to stop them if they were recklessly driving, or speeding...

 

[hakoMike]

Originally posted by Ritual
It\'s not like they stop every single car, just the ones that drive too fast or too recklessly.

That doesn\'t sound particularly random. Police here have to be careful to even avoid the appearance of pulling people over without probable cause, lest they be accused of racial profiling (the slang term here is DWB : Driving While Black.)

The 4th amendment to the U.S. Constitution: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

...

Now, that aside.... \"cranking up the music\" = :cussing:. I am a person who enjoys silence, and having my idiot neighbors jamming out at 1.21 gigawatts is infuriating. Some kids nap during the afternoon. (I\'m guessing that you already know that there aren\'t any young kids around you R7B, so that wasn\'t directed against you... just a general rant.)

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by hakoMike
Now, that aside.... \"cranking up the music\" = :cussing:. I am a person who enjoys silence, and having my idiot neighbors jamming out at 1.21 gigawatts is infuriating.

I am sure it is just me getting older...but it used to piss me off when someone would drive by the house with their car stereo so loud that my windows shake....Now we kind of make it a family rule..that anytime you hear it, you have to stop what you are doing and dance to the music....So much more enjoyable now!!
lollol

 

[vincegamer]

In 1959 in Oklahoma, alcohol was still illegal.
The new governor said he would bring the issue to a public vote as soon as possible.
In the mean time he had the Highway Patrol do random border stops. Between midnight and about 2am, cops would sit on a randomly selected state border (so it couldn\'t be anticipated) and stop and search every car coming into the state. They seized and destroyed gallons and gallons of alcohol.
Totally illegal. The owners couldn\'t be prosecuted, but they also couldn\'t ask for their illegal alcohol back.
The net effect was alcohol became much more expensive and when the vote came around, Oklahomans soundly repealed the prohibition.

 

[dauber22]

I\'d just like to point out that here in the US, the states with the worst instances of gun violence are also the ones with the most restrictive gun laws. ??? Texas has a fairly liberal right-to-carry law allowing you to get a permit to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere (except churches, schools, bars & the like) and it has a very low amount of gun violence incidents and also a very low amount of random street crime.

 

[vincegamer]

correlation is not necessarily causation.
However, I have heard that violent crimes declined in some states after conceal-and-carry laws passed. Presumably the thought that victims might be concealing guns had something to do with this.