Exactly. That's not something I want to deal with when I come to a hobby to enjoy myself. When I want to deal with crimes of real humanity, I'll read a bloody history book, pick up a client's case file, or go to a victims' rights organization.
Alien Contact: Controversial Subject matter.
- Thread starter supervike
- Start date
Exactly. That's not something I want to deal with when I come to a hobby to enjoy myself. When I want to deal with crimes of real humanity, I'll read a bloody history book, pick up a client's case file, or go to a victims' rights organization.
freakinacage
Well-known member
but genocide is ok?
cleen X
New member
You might not have said it but there are dioramas and minis that does depict genocide or killing or torturing. Someone actually decided to push miniature painting in the direction of true art instead of the same things we see on this site everyday, and that is a good thing in my mind. Art is meant to provoke, to question the world that we live in, where rape does happend. To depict it does not mean the artist approves of it. Maybe this will open some eyes, make people see that the things we don't think twice about, like killing and guts and blood, maybe should be questioned to. Because they are just as real as rape! And blaming the fact that killing or depicitning killing is a multi million buisness and something that we see in movies all the time, so we are used to them, is a weak excuse. It's a great painted scene that does what most mini dioramas does not. Make you feel and think, and you should feel disgusted because rape is a disgusting act but still, does not give people the right to say the stuff that's being said about the painter.
Wow, no effing kidding. And yet you won't find a single one with a word of praise from me.
or a single protest.
The question isn't answered convincingly, which is, why the fuss over this as opposed to other subject matter? Your special sensitivities are, well, yours. We have plenty of miniatures of provocative women, naked dudes, killer children, killed children, dead humans, dead aliens, humans being made dead in very unpleasant ways, dead animals, top halves of people, bottom halves of people, quarters of people etc. I'm not taking any of those down, and I've received plenty of complaints over the years about what people want or don't want to see. If we acted on even half of the censorship demands stemming from personal taste or opinion, it'd be a gallery of studio paint jobs and imitations of such.
Certainly, I'm sure there's a market out there for a US child friendly miniatures site (i.e. no sex) or a German child friendly miniatures site (i.e. no violence), or a Chinese child friendly miniatures site (i.e. no politics), and I am intentionally leaving that space open to them. We are not those sites.
And this is my own personal opinion. You are looking at one scene in a narrative and reading a hell of a lot into it. As Nakatan quite rightly points out, how the story ends is up to you, which is what makes it so interesting. There are plenty of films where a victim turns the tables on an aggressor. Your imagination leaps to the unhappy ending, which is fine. It does not for me. How loudly would you protest if another diorama depicts similar characters where the Eldar is disemboweling a Guardsman with his pants down?
freakinacage
Well-known member
but you play and collect a game that reveres war and death. even the 'good guys' are happy to destroy a planet of good people if they think it will help them get there way
No Such Agency
New member
^^ There are "good guys" in Warhammer 40,000?
How does GW get away with Slaanesh at all, in a game marketed widely to young people? Oh the mysteries of life...
Hey, I hope nobody here actually thinks you're some kind of deviated prevert. IMO you just failed to hit the artistic nail on the head with this one, although it is technically superb.
How does GW get away with Slaanesh at all, in a game marketed widely to young people? Oh the mysteries of life...
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LegionoftheCow
New member
The very fact Nakatan got everyone to think the following possibilities from a simple placement of static figures IS his artistic abilities put to work. And his success as an artist/person/individual.
-possible gang rape
-possible she kills everyone with knife or somehow escapes
-possible one guardsmen stops others
There is NO rape currently occurring. AND claiming we are ignorant to say that its possible the next frame of the story is something not of rape is simply arrogant.
Honestly for people who get offended and think it should be banned. You guys are the reason kids dont have playgrounds anymore, dont go outside and play with friends, dont get to play competitive sports, and get screwed out of so many good opportunities. Now you want to take another thing away from people because you cant handle it?
Paranoia causes more problems than the things people are trying to protect people from! This diorama has gotten much more attention simply BECAUSE people are offended. You dont see the irony in complaining about it? You are bringing it to attention far more than Nakatan did by simply posting it.
-possible gang rape
-possible she kills everyone with knife or somehow escapes
-possible one guardsmen stops others
There is NO rape currently occurring. AND claiming we are ignorant to say that its possible the next frame of the story is something not of rape is simply arrogant.
Honestly for people who get offended and think it should be banned. You guys are the reason kids dont have playgrounds anymore, dont go outside and play with friends, dont get to play competitive sports, and get screwed out of so many good opportunities. Now you want to take another thing away from people because you cant handle it?
Paranoia causes more problems than the things people are trying to protect people from! This diorama has gotten much more attention simply BECAUSE people are offended. You dont see the irony in complaining about it? You are bringing it to attention far more than Nakatan did by simply posting it.
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Torn blue sky
New member
Have to admit my initial reaction was "What in the blazing f**k..." , you'd have to be pretty ignorant to realise things like this have never happens in war though. It's not a subject i'm personally fond of, but regardless of that, and further to what people have pointed out it's just one frame in a reel. She's got a knife in close proximity and she's reaching for it, fluff wise i'd imagine an Eldar could easily dance around some clumsy guardsmen and make quite short work of them. Could be the guy covering her is telling the others to stand down, could be an altogether darker outcome, could be there's a skulking eldar in the wings that'll come in and save the lady. Could be a combination of all four likelyhoods. The point is, it's an open ending. Things like this are made to evoke a bit of thought and I think this guy's achieved it. While my initial thoughts were less than savoury, that's down to life experience and not a fault of the artist himself.
Because so far, my reaction to hackneyed gory pieces has been to roll my eyes in irritation and move on. I'm not inured to it, but it was already a well-established theme when I came to the site. Same with cheesecake and all the rest. I expect to run into it occasionally, and I know it's not going to go anywhere just because I post a comment saying how juvenile or tasteless I think it is.
THIS is something new, and I was rather hoping it wasn't going to set up shop here. It's becoming apparent that there is nowhere that is out-of-bounds here; honestly, why even bother having submissions moderated first?
Pretty damned loudly, especially after this. But it'd be a pointless endeavor, since no-one will change a thing. And to address a few other comments, I'll just say that, believe it or not, I don't immerse myself in every aspect of this hobby: I don't play anything, I just paint. I don't read everything, just a few things here and there. And I certainly don't see every single miniature or diorama that depicts rape, or torture, or genocide, or disembowelment. So please don't assume that just because I'm not on every forum decrying each and every one that I sit here in smug approval of them all. And I do believe in limits; some things I'll accept, others I'll shake my head and ignore, and still others are too much for me. It's not hypocrisy, it's human bloody nature! And I hate to think that some day no depiction of human misery or depravity will be extreme enough that no-one will look at it and say "whoah, that goes too far."
Torn blue sky
New member
It's worse here y'know, they've done away with rulers and them tape measures have some reach!
Well here's what I see happening. After the violent crash the unfortunate female Guardian's chest plate flew off (how embarassing!). The kind guardsman is simply returning her armor to protect her because the kind and gentle p.o.w. camp where they will take her may have some unsavory prisoners (xeno's of course). After the tough battle, one of the guardsman has undone his belt in order to tuck in his shirt back in. Must look presentable! This is the Imperial Guard, after all!
On another note. I agree with Chern Ann.
It always fascinates me how violence is okay, sex is okay, but violent sex is somehow unacceptable. Would there be so many complaints if it was a Marine being de-pants by a daemonette or female eldars (say howling banshees)?
But again this scene does not actually show the act of rape. The story and certainly it's end is left up to us, the viewer to imagine.
I highly appreciate art that is well done and challenges our opinions and conceptions. This scene did indeed make me a bit uncomfortable at first. But that's my problem and certainly not worth negative rants. If you see the first image...realize what the scene MAY be suggesting...then by all means close the window and don't look any further. You don't have to look at it!
On another note. I agree with Chern Ann.
It always fascinates me how violence is okay, sex is okay, but violent sex is somehow unacceptable. Would there be so many complaints if it was a Marine being de-pants by a daemonette or female eldars (say howling banshees)?
But again this scene does not actually show the act of rape. The story and certainly it's end is left up to us, the viewer to imagine.
I highly appreciate art that is well done and challenges our opinions and conceptions. This scene did indeed make me a bit uncomfortable at first. But that's my problem and certainly not worth negative rants. If you see the first image...realize what the scene MAY be suggesting...then by all means close the window and don't look any further. You don't have to look at it!
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DrEvilmonki
Active member
People who think depictions of rape are the cause of kids not getting playgrounds? - Do you engage your brain before opening your mouth?
So people shouldnt talk about things they dont like because it will draw attention to it? Bollocks.
I rather think it isnt Gearhead who is the arrogant one in this conversation.
The diorama reminds me of the excellent film "Casualties of War", which does also hint at rape in a rather extreme way, without actually showing the crime in a pornographic manner.
The conflicting feelings and interpetations this piece evokes make it so great in my eyes
Gangrape is the moste likely outcome, but it is NOT the only one, as others have pointed out. There are so so many films that play with the notion of impending rape only to have the tables turning and the aggressor down in his own blood.... Kill Bill, Sin City etc (hell, even "sailormoon" or "alice in wonderland" contain more or less hidden rapetreads to the heroines). I don`t like all of them, but they are more or less deemed socially acceptable or even "fun".
All those border on the pornographic, because the heroines are depicted as good looking, sexy, alluring etc. (as is this eldar, which is kind of a miracle in it self, because she is a 28mm piece of plastic!) but thats part of the appeal (for me at least): You must not feel what the rapist feels, but you can understand why doing such an act might be attractive for a depraved man.
The diorama shows something I can emotionally relate to on many levels. All this grimdark stuff about eternal servitude to the dark powers/ god emperor, the depravities of slannesh and the dark eldar, whole planets destroyed to get rid of a single infected person, space marine training which leaves 3/4 of the aspirants killed, broken ore maimed etc. all that is not a single ounce better on the moral scale, but (to me) much lower on the artistic scale, because it is so over the top I can`t relate to it.
The conflicting feelings and interpetations this piece evokes make it so great in my eyes
Gangrape is the moste likely outcome, but it is NOT the only one, as others have pointed out. There are so so many films that play with the notion of impending rape only to have the tables turning and the aggressor down in his own blood.... Kill Bill, Sin City etc (hell, even "sailormoon" or "alice in wonderland" contain more or less hidden rapetreads to the heroines). I don`t like all of them, but they are more or less deemed socially acceptable or even "fun".
All those border on the pornographic, because the heroines are depicted as good looking, sexy, alluring etc. (as is this eldar, which is kind of a miracle in it self, because she is a 28mm piece of plastic!) but thats part of the appeal (for me at least): You must not feel what the rapist feels, but you can understand why doing such an act might be attractive for a depraved man.
The diorama shows something I can emotionally relate to on many levels. All this grimdark stuff about eternal servitude to the dark powers/ god emperor, the depravities of slannesh and the dark eldar, whole planets destroyed to get rid of a single infected person, space marine training which leaves 3/4 of the aspirants killed, broken ore maimed etc. all that is not a single ounce better on the moral scale, but (to me) much lower on the artistic scale, because it is so over the top I can`t relate to it.
Routaporsas
New member
My answer to the main guestion: "So, what do you think? Too brutal?"
Well...NO. I'm from cold, harsh land of Finland and we are not renown of softness. But I think this is just part of the War(unfortunately). Hell, Raping , pillaging and stuff have always been parts of war. Is that so hard to realise. I haven't been in the war but I have been in the army. We were thought to kill and maim our enemies. And raping..well war can make some of us to do really really bad things. This is not exception. It has happened and it will happen again in future wars. I Think this dio is well made and it showes some bad and nasty sides of this futuristic 40k War. It's just a game and fantasy, but then again, it's about War and destruction. Mayhem and devastation. So what did you expect? Flowers and happy thoughts. War is nasty and ugly thing.
Like I said I like this work for many reasons. Its technically well made, and it's bold and very controvercial. And besides...maybe She will survive. Who knows..she is a though bitch. She will kill them all.
Ps. World of 40k is so full of fasicm, rasicm and hate, that this work is nothing in comparison. There are stories of genocide and stuff. Maybe this would not be the official line of GW, but who gives a flying F about that. This is a form of art. People should be free to express their feeling and thoughts. Like I said war can be Really ugly thing. Read Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century by Jonathan Glover. That's something to think about. This all is mild in comparison.
PSS. Mayde that imaginary imperial Colonel you like to think wouldn't approve this and maybe you troops would not approve this, but if you think soldiers that come from hars and ultra violent worlds like Necromunda, is this kind of behaviour so suprising? I mean GW really likes to point out how violent and hars this world of 40k is..so why are you so suprised?
Edit And hey..Christmas is near so be nice and lets not make this any war zone. I don't think this is So serious thing.
Well...NO. I'm from cold, harsh land of Finland and we are not renown of softness. But I think this is just part of the War(unfortunately). Hell, Raping , pillaging and stuff have always been parts of war. Is that so hard to realise. I haven't been in the war but I have been in the army. We were thought to kill and maim our enemies. And raping..well war can make some of us to do really really bad things. This is not exception. It has happened and it will happen again in future wars. I Think this dio is well made and it showes some bad and nasty sides of this futuristic 40k War. It's just a game and fantasy, but then again, it's about War and destruction. Mayhem and devastation. So what did you expect? Flowers and happy thoughts. War is nasty and ugly thing.
Like I said I like this work for many reasons. Its technically well made, and it's bold and very controvercial. And besides...maybe She will survive. Who knows..she is a though bitch. She will kill them all.
Ps. World of 40k is so full of fasicm, rasicm and hate, that this work is nothing in comparison. There are stories of genocide and stuff. Maybe this would not be the official line of GW, but who gives a flying F about that. This is a form of art. People should be free to express their feeling and thoughts. Like I said war can be Really ugly thing. Read Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century by Jonathan Glover. That's something to think about. This all is mild in comparison.
PSS. Mayde that imaginary imperial Colonel you like to think wouldn't approve this and maybe you troops would not approve this, but if you think soldiers that come from hars and ultra violent worlds like Necromunda, is this kind of behaviour so suprising? I mean GW really likes to point out how violent and hars this world of 40k is..so why are you so suprised?
Edit And hey..Christmas is near so be nice and lets not make this any war zone. I don't think this is So serious thing.
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