Apoxie<=>Epoxie = STICKY MESS!

[kathrynloch]

I know threads abound about Apoxie, Epoxie, GS, Magic Sculpt, et al. but I wanted to see if we could talk about the behaviors of the different types and solutions to situations. Heck maybe we could even make a sticky out of the post about sticky stuff!

I really have a hard time with various brands of epoxie putties like Green Stuff, P3, and a couple of off brands that I've found and tried. The same goes for the clays - Apoxie Sculpt, Apoxie Clay and Fix-It Sculpt and I have a hard time as well. I think it's basically plumbers putty right? Thus why it's so sticky. My problem is that using water, the safety solvent, olive oil, talc - nothing works for me. It's going to stick to my fingers or tools at the worst possible time and I end up ruining all of my hard work.

The one clay I haven't tried is Amazing Sculpt by Debbi LerMond. She is a model horse sculptor and designed the clay. I would like to give it a shot one of these days and see how it goes.

One thing I was reading, to slow the cure time with Amazing Sculpt, stick it in the freezer. My work area is very hot. No real air conditioning reaches here and all I have are fans. Now, epoxy in all of the various brands still boils down to the root of epoxy. Everyone can tweak certain things but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....well you get the picture. So I wonder if putting this stuff in the freezer will help.

I still need to address the stickiness though. There are times I work with extremely small tools. These just don't have the surface area to for water or safety solvent or whatever. So I can make two little marks and then I have to get more water. Usually when I sculpt I end up becoming so focused on the piece, that I don't even think about water until it's too late. Or if I do remember, it's enough of a disruption that it's an irritation. I know I'm strange, it's almost like target fixation.

This stuff just drives me crazy and it seems no matter what I try, it's always the same result.

Any ideas?

 

[tridmin]

Hi Kathryn,

All epoxy putties are sticky upon mixing, some more than others. Usually setting it aside for 15-20 minutes post-mixing will take care of most of the stickyness, and still leave you enough time to work the putty--and have it adhere to what you are working on.

I find it very useful to go in with clean tools. Any "texturing" on the tool will give the putty something to adhere to. Also a bit of a "roll of the wrist" when applying the putty helps the tool break away clean. You might also try a quick spritz of non-stick cooking spray on the tools. . .

As to cooling down, rest assured it works! I usually have an open soft drink at the bench, and if I have any leftover putty, I will just squash onto the bottom of the can--instant fridge! Keep in mind that the smaller the amount of putty, the more effective the cooling will be: it's an exothermic catalytic rxn, so once it begins (thorough mixing of putty), it can not be stopped. And the larger the mixed portion, the more heat it will generate. The longest I've kept mixed putty in a viable state in this fashion is 6 hrs. If you want to extend the actual working time (i.e., putty on the figure), put the figure in the fridge for an hour or two before beginning your session--that should buy you at least an additional hour + of working time.

Hope this helps!

Augie

 

[kathrynloch]

Augie that's fantastic info! Thank you! I've tried olive oil but not cooking spray. I always try to thoroughly clean my tools but have missed a spot here and there. I've also tried sanding it off of tools then use high gloss sealer to "reseal" them. I thought about trying clear nail polish but I never do my nails and don't want to buy it since I won't use it if it doesn't work. lol!

I'll definitely try the "roll of the wrist" rather than a pull or lift. And I'm making room in the fridge for the minis. lol!

Thank you again, Augie, for the great info!

 

[armornv]

With what little experience with putty I have, here is my 2 cents. Augie is correct in that if heat speeds up the curing process, then cold will slow it down. It won't stop it, but definately gives a bit more work time. For me, water makes Magic Sculpt....not sure how to put it. Kinda like dragging your finger across a wet kleenex. You get these little lumps, balls, chunks of putty if try to smooth the same area too much. My solution? Good ole Vaseline! Smooths out like a champ and and rarely do I have a problem with a tool stickin to it. The same seems to go for Green Stuff as well. Haven't ever used any of the other stuff you mentioned but I know it works on what I use! Hope it helps!

 

[DarkStar]

With what little experience with putty I have, here is my 2 cents. Augie is correct in that if heat speeds up the curing process, then cold will slow it down. It won't stop it, but definately gives a bit more work time. For me, water makes Magic Sculpt....not sure how to put it. Kinda like dragging your finger across a wet kleenex. You get these little lumps, balls, chunks of putty if try to smooth the same area too much. My solution? Good ole Vaseline! Smooths out like a champ and and rarely do I have a problem with a tool stickin to it. The same seems to go for Green Stuff as well. Haven't ever used any of the other stuff you mentioned but I know it works on what I use! Hope it helps!

I work both Magic Sculpt and Apoxie the same way but with crisco (vegetable based shortening) instead since it comes off a little easier with soapy water than vaseline. Never sticks to my tools since I keep them slightly lubed with the crisco at all times. I have a little dab of it nearby when sculpting and just reapply when it starts running dry on the tool. I only use water to smooth the epoxy at the very end of sculpting to help smooth it out a little, I found most of my frustrations with working with those compounds went away when I stopped using water and switched to a more friendly lubricant.

Regarding the heat/cold properties, yes for a third voice here to agree with that, you can stick it in the freezer after you've mixed it and it will stay open for a long time, I've even let it sit there overnight and picked it up the next day and used it just fine. Another thing to know about it is that if the epoxy is getting too firm for you to work with but you really need it to soften up a bit since it's already on the piece and you're going into panic mode because it's hardening, you can hit it with a high power heat gun (if your underlying support isn't meltable, a no no on plastics/resins but fine for metal, baked sculpey etc...). The heat will soften up the epoxy just long enough for you to either remove it or resculpt it *quickly* again to work better for you. The extra heat from the heat gun will make the stuff set up really quickly afterwords so make sure you understand that part if you need to use the heat gun/embossing tool to soften it. A word of caution on that is to be careful with the heat since if applied to enthusiastically you can 'bubble' the epoxy and that's really not going to be a happy moment.

 

[Einion]

After I PMed you yesterday I made a few quick notes but some questions based on the info you've posted would be a better starting point. For example, some details about when and how you get sticking will help diagnose the exact cause.

GS/Kneadatite is a completely different animal to the clay-like putties (MagicSculp, Apoxie Sculpt, Milliput, A+B) so it should be handled and treated differently. I'll come back to that later if you want, just want to focus on MS and AS for now since they shouldn't be found to be too adhesive and they're better all-round sculpting mediums anyway. Except for very small-scale work, lots of us only use GS for fine applied details or smooth flowing things like hair.

My problem is that using water, the safety solvent, olive oil, talc - nothing works for me. It's going to stick to my fingers or tools at the worst possible time and I end up ruining all of my hard work.

When during the working period does this still occur, how badly does it stick (small blobs tear way or large sections coming loose), literally with every two-part material you've tried?

Using oil in particular I'm very surprised that you get any real problems with sticking, since even without much lubrication (I've come to rely on very little, more on this later) you shouldn't get excessive tool stickage.

Initially I think we all use fingers (don't have to, but sometimes they are the best and fastest way to get putty into place) but past a certain point you shouldn't need to touch the putty with anything but a sculpting tool, excepting running a damp finger over the surface to quickly smooth it off. Certainly no pressing with the fingerprint area, which putty just loves to stick to more than most other things!

Which leads on the tools - what do you have, what do you use most and how clean are they? More than clean, are they very smooth or polished?

The one clay I haven't tried is Amazing Sculpt by Debbi LerMond. She is a model horse sculptor and designed the clay. I would like to give it a shot one of these days and see how it goes.

Given what I think you've tried and have at hand already I wouldn't look for a new putty to solve your issues quite yet. If you had were using Milliput and hadn't yet tried MS I'd say the opposite, but for now I think you need to fix methodology; pretty sure this isn't a materials issue.

One thing I was reading, to slow the cure time with Amazing Sculpt, stick it in the freezer. My work area is very hot.... So I wonder if putting this stuff in the freezer will help.

Whilst working this may be a bit of a 'false economy'. Freezing will certainly slow the reaction time*, but once it gets back up to temp it'll progress at the same rate, only you'll have lost a small amount of time from a limited window while waiting for it to return to a useful working consistency - if it's humid there you'll get a lot of condensation on the surface initially, which is great for lubrication for a short time but you may well find it makes the putty a little too wet (forming slurry if you work over the surface... and slurry gets really sticky when it begins to dry again).

*I've put excess putty away for 8 hours or so and been able to use it, and overnight and still just about been able to do something with it but it's noticeably less cooperative past 6-8 hours.

Relating to the working period/setting time, could you estimate how long you mix for? Just until the two parts are well combined or do you go at it for longer, to really make sure they're thoroughly blended? IME it doesn't actually make much of a difference unless you go completely overboard and mix and smoosh and fold and mix for a good five minutes or so, which can significantly shorten the working period (taking off a half hour to an hour) but thought I'd check.

I still need to address the stickiness though. There are times I work with extremely small tools. These just don't have the surface area to for water or safety solvent or whatever. So I can make two little marks and then I have to get more water. Usually when I sculpt I end up becoming so focused on the piece, that I don't even think about water until it's too late. Or if I do remember, it's enough of a disruption that it's an irritation. I know I'm strange, it's almost like target fixation.

Trust me, it's not a scale thing. I'm pretty sure you're not working smaller than I usually do and I can apply a single eyebrow or fat pocket at 1/32 scale without having problems with the putty sticking to the wrong thing.

I do understand the "Ack, don't have time to take the tool away to lubricate it some more!" thing, especially if you're feeling the curing time bearing down on you. This is one of the main draws to lubricating tools in the mouth since it can be done so very quickly, but obviously that's not a good way to work (and it's a hard habit to break if you've already developed it)! But assuming you can't get on with needing to use less lubrication there are some simple things that'll help enormously - I'll get to this later but if you've ever watched one of the tattoo shows on TV, and looked at the back of their other hand as they're working that's a clue to what I'm referring to.

Einion

 

[kathrynloch]

For me, water makes Magic Sculpt....not sure how to put it. Kinda like dragging your finger across a wet kleenex. You get these little lumps, balls, chunks of putty if try to smooth the same area too much. My solution? Good ole Vaseline! Smooths out like a champ and and rarely do I have a problem with a tool stickin to it.

Thanks armor! Yeah, water does the same thing for me and AS too that's why I tried the safety solvent. I'll try the vaseline.

I work both Magic Sculpt and Apoxie the same way but with crisco (vegetable based shortening) instead since it comes off a little easier with soapy water than vaseline. Never sticks to my tools since I keep them slightly lubed with the crisco at all times. I have a little dab of it nearby when sculpting and just reapply when it starts running dry on the tool. I only use water to smooth the epoxy at the very end of sculpting to help smooth it out a little, I found most of my frustrations with working with those compounds went away when I stopped using water and switched to a more friendly lubricant.

Thanks darkstar. No crisco at my house but it sounds like a great idea. I'll see if I can pick up a small can of the generic stuff. It makes sense that it's easier to clean up than vaseline but I'll give 'em both a go.

Oh and I'm downright dangerous with a heat gun.

After I PMed you yesterday I made a few quick notes but some questions based on the info you've posted would be a better starting point. For example, some details about when and how you get sticking will help diagnose the exact cause.

Okay, I'll try to summarize here and touch on some of the other specifics you asked. Right now I'm primarily working with Apoxie Clay because I had these same issues with AS only worse. AC is an improvement but not much of one.

I mix just long enough to get a good blend, I'm usually working in very small amounts for fill work rather than a complete sculpture right now, so I make a small ball about a 1/4 inch in diameter. It doesn't take long to blend it at all.

Typically I'll get my fingers wet with the safety solvent, just enough to keep it from sticking to my hands while I knead. I sit it aside for about 5 min. Then I apply it with my fingers (again using the safety solvent). If I have too much on my fingers, it doesn't stick at all. If I don't have enough, it won't apply to the mini or horse but instead sticks to my fingers. Once I manage to get it applied and relatively in place with my fingers, I'll grab a sculpting tool, dip it in the solvent, wipe off one side on the back of my free hand and start to work. (funny you mentioned the tattoo shows using the back of their hand, I haven't watched any of them but I do this stuff all the time when I'm working.) I do this because my tool is usually curved and will have some sort of recess that holds too much solvent. If I try to use it like that, it gets all over the mini and nothing will stick. So I'll wipe that curved side since it's not touching the mini anyway and start working. Typically, with the larger tools I'll get about 3-5 good strokes of sculpting before it sticks to the tool and lifts. I rarely get a warning but sometimes it will just be a little ball that sticks and I use the back of my hand to wipe that off too. lol!

That's when I have to go back to the solvent and the whole thing starts over again. The smaller tools are handmade sculpting tools for dolls and are brass with a wooden handle.

View attachment 7727

These are the newer version, mine are much older and have a tool on each end but these are by the same person (unfortunately due to health problems, he doesn't make these any more).

I absolutely love these tools.

Okay, I'm on lunch at work right now and it's over so I gotta run. I'll finish responding to this when I get another few minutes. Sorry! Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it.

 

[Einion]

Okay, I'll try to summarize here and touch on some of the other specifics you asked. Right now I'm primarily working with Apoxie Clay because I had these same issues with AS only worse. AC is an improvement but not much of one.

How about MS?

As I mentioned in my PM, I find Apoxie Sculpt a little soft and putty-like for my liking, but not so much that I find it unusable after pushing myself to use it. If I hold off until later in the curing period it's pretty much interchangeable with MS for me, except for being slightly more translucent.

Typically I'll get my fingers wet with the safety solvent, just enough to keep it from sticking to my hands while I knead.

Ah, that may be part of the problem - you're modifying the characteristics of the epoxy this way. I haven't used the stuff myself but my thinking is that by incorporating this into the mix you're probably making it more prone to sticking during some or all of that session... given that talc does the reverse for example.

It's not a good idea to have this stuff (safety solvent) routinely on your skin anyway, but purely in terms of working characteristics I would recommend you mix differently. Wear gloves or finger cots, or bare skin and wash your hands immediately after.

It is possible to mix any of the common epoxies without a single bit sticking to your skin when you're done*; yes there'll be residue you can feel and even see, but no actual blobs. If you can't do this then it's time to modify your technique. First thing I'd recommend is not to smoosh between the fingertips** bit instead use the roll-and-fold technique. For larger quantities it's the best and fastest way to blend anyway but it can be used for smaller amounts too. You might find it helpful also to form a blanket of the hardener to wrap the resin in before mixing. Use some talc if you need to - talc is magic dust if you have problems with stickiness.

*Excluding Milliput, which is one of many reasons to prefer something else.

*I do this for smaller amounts but obviously this is an area where individual mileage varies.

I sit it aside for about 5 min. Then I apply it with my fingers (again using the safety solvent). If I have too much on my fingers, it doesn't stick at all. If I don't have enough, it won't apply to the mini or horse but instead sticks to my fingers.

I think everyone experiences this sort of issue to one degree or another and I think we all develop various ways of dealing with it.

Have you tried using your nail to press the putty into place? For me, putties stick much less to nail than to skin. But mostly I've switched to applying putty with my tools (mainly to avoid touching the stuff after I've washed my hands, but it has a secondary benefit).

Typically, with the larger tools I'll get about 3-5 good strokes of sculpting before it sticks to the tool and lifts.

This was just what I was expecting to hear; think this is the main issue. Although it'll be very difficult I think you'd benefit from changing the way you interact with the putty surface during the initial phase of working - press, don't draw/pull. Long strokes especially, you can guarantee you'll get some sticking or cling, leading to tearout.

Higher temps in your work area aren't going to be doing you any favours either. Obviously the putty will be hardening faster (significantly longer working time during the winter in an unheated room for example, I think I get an extra hour) but it's also going to be softer, and hence stickier. But given that Apoxie Clay is stiffer than Apoxie Sculpt I think the main cause might be your tools and how you're manipulating the putty as you work.

Last thing, I think those tools may be more suited to working with polymer clays than epoxies. Especially if they're not super-smooth on all the faces/edges that will contact the putty. With the exception of a Colourshaper, I only use polished tools for sculpting these days; mainly because it helps achieve a smoother finish (smooth tool = smooth mark, polished tool = polished mark) but also because there's less for the putty to try to hold onto.

Einion

 

[Shawn R. L.]

One thing I've used for sticky clays is baby powder.

 

[kathrynloch]

Thank you everyone for your fantastic replies and wonderful information. I decided to put some of it to the test.

I just started assembling Balthalzar Gelt on his Pegasus - it's metal, so I popped my Apoxie stuff in the fridge (I should probably store it in there anyway at least during the summer months) and because it's metal, I popped the horse in the freezer.

After about an hour, hour and a half, I pulled out the Apoxie Clay and got enough out to make a little 1/4 inch ball. This time I didn't use any solvent when I mixed. One part is still really sticky but I was able to get most of it off my fingers. It did help that it was cold. I wanted to try mixing without adding anything to my fingers and therefore into the mix as Einon suggested. So I kneaded it just long enough to get a good mix and popped it back in the fridge.

I don't have any crisco and I've tried vegi oil so this time I used Vaseline. After the clay had been in the fridge for at least 30 minutes (I got distracted with something else) I pulled out a brand new unused tool and put a light touch of vaseline on it, and then grabbed the clay and a very, very cold metal horse.

It worked like a charm! It wasn't perfect but doggoneit it was a HUGE improvement! I was able to fill the gap where I glued the horse's head onto the body and I wasn't cussing up a blue streak. lol! I also didn't have to stop to add water or solvent or anything to the tool every two seconds. I only had to redo the vaseline twice. Toward the end it started getting a little more difficult to work with but I managed to smooth the last part over a the gap and I stuck the left over clay in the fridge and the horse in the freezer. In a little bit, I'll pull them back out and see if I can fill the gap in the belly.

I'm sure the method will take a little tweaking for me to really get it down but wow what a relief! The improvement was so substantial I may get to where I don't dread working with Apoxie anymore.

So thank you again everyone! You don't know how much I appreciate the feedback and input on this. When I get the horse filled, I'll post some pics. Thank you! Thank you!

 

[armornv]

Success!!! Glad to hear it Kath! Just be careful.... even starting with filling gaps can cause the onset of the sculpting bug!

 

[DarkStar]

Interesting never thought of putting the actual piece I was working on into the freezer. Seems like the water condensing as it warms up while being worked on would aid in keeping the tools "gliding" instead of sticking. Cool stuff to think about. (bad pun)

 

[kathrynloch]

Well, I didn't have any trouble with condensation and I live in an extremely humid area - and it's been insanely hot and humid here lately, heat index of 111. It's been a long time since the science experiments in school but do you think the "frost free" aspect of the freezer removed enough moisture from the mini that it took condensation out of the picture? Since I was sculpting, I was handling it and I work on top of those blue paper towel shop towels. That may have removed any condensation before it became an issue so I didn't even notice.

 

[Einion]

Thank you everyone for your fantastic replies and wonderful information. I decided to put some of it to the test.

:good:

This time I didn't use any solvent when I mixed. One part is still really sticky but I was able to get most of it off my fingers. It did help that it was cold. I wanted to try mixing without adding anything to my fingers and therefore into the mix as Einon suggested. So I kneaded it just long enough to get a good mix and popped it back in the fridge.

This bit: I'd recommend getting a dedicated too for digging out chunks of resin and hardener from the containers. I started doing this after getting sick of stuff jammed under my fingernails; was using one of sculpting tools for this job for a while but it's not beefy enough, chanced onto a tool in a cookware suppliers that does the job better and doesn't try to bend when used with force (think it's for picking lobster meat out of the shell). Only cost about a buck too (99c) so it was a bit of a no-brainer.

This bit: mix between the palms instead of using fingers - if it works the same for you the putty naturally sticks less to this skin. But talc your hands in advance if necessary, won't do any harm and you may find it improves the putty.

Condensation relates to the moisture in the air around you, not what's in or on the piece itself to begin with. Here (humidity typically above 60% and sometimes higher than 80%) I get a few minutes when putty out of the freezer actually gets wet there's so much condensation on it, but once it's back to room temp it's just like it would have been had it not been frozen.

Going back to the shorter working time, my two main tips on this unfortunately both have the same downside: they make the putty softer. The first is to play with the amounts of hardener to resin - most better epoxy putties are quite forgiving of some variation in proportion of A to B, even up to around 7:3, but the more resin there is the softer and stickier the mix. Because I have a longer-than-normal working time usually, I sometimes deliberately use more hardener because it makes MS less sticky, more waxy and good for certain types of work, but obviously that's not practical for you since it would give you even less time to use it.

The other tip is to blend epoxy with a polymer clay. But oddly, even if the FIMO or SS is really hard to begin with once you have them fully mixed the resulting compound is really soft (unpleasantly so IMO). You could put it in the fridge or freezer to stiffen it up but I put it aside it for at least 30-45 minutes before using it, unless I just want to quickly push it into shape first. With mixes like this I've gotten six hours of working time easy, so you should be able to extend your working time to over two hours without any trouble.

...

Oh nearly forgot, update on freezing time and workability: mixed some MS at 08:00 on Saturday and deliberately put some aside in the freezer early on (I realised that I'd usually use the freezer after a good chunk of time, when it's obvious I won't be able to use all the putty in that session). I used some of it when I got back that evening, so roughly 12-13 hours, and once it had thawed properly it was great to work with, pretty much normal.

But also left a chunk in until the following day, and it was still usable; this was a good 30 hours after mixing. I wouldn't want to manipulate the putty much and shape it afresh from how it felt, but it was fine for working on the surface. Got a good hour+ before it was getting too stiff to be worth shaping any more.

Einion