Are these fair scores?

[kittykat23uk]

Jenova,

Thanks for being so honest, I like your work a lot too, you do seem to have the upper hand when it comes to blending right now, although I think you could do with improving on those bases of yours (not too keen on those glossy purple ones in the CMON book!). I have been trying to improve my blending over the past year and I do agree that I have a way to go before getting into the 9-10 range. Although I think perhaps people are becoming tougher with regards to giving out higher scores. IMHO super smooth blending should really only be a major factor in the 9 to 10 range. For the 7-8 range I would expect to concentrate on overall look of the mini, general basing, neatness and colour choice.

All I can say though is that part/ a lot of my problem is the camera. Taking the orc as an example, those little white dots that seem to be concentrated around the right arm and into the elbow do not appear to be there in real life. They are actually a result of enhancing the focus in XN View to create a sharper image.

Maybe you are right about the shading on the red, brown and green - it\'s there in real life but is lost in the picture. However, if I overcompensated for that in the painting, I think it would look worse in real life. The red is highlighted several times over, as is the green but again, looking more closely at the pic I see that the photo has oversaturated these areas and the shading and highlighting that I did has been somewhat lost. Also the crossbow and face of the orc are a bit out of focus which doesn\'t help. I agree that the orc itself is worthy of around a 7, which is supposedly equated to \"pretty good\". This was my first ever greenskin btw, so I\'m happy with that. I am more concerned really about the wolfen, which I think are better than the orc.

Regarding size of pictures, I can already see in this pic that the compression rate has created artifacts around the edges of the picture. The size of this one is about 80-90K. Any larger and I loose more clarity because of the 100K limit.

I also believe that recently a lot of stuff that I\'d consider an 8 or 9 has been marked lower- the recent UK Gamesday runners up and even some of the winners for example (a 10 is supposed to be golden demon quality, but even golden demon winners don\'t often get out of the 8 range and runners up are in the 7 to 8 range).

Having said all this, I do still believe that overall the diorama and the wolfen in particular deserve better than the scores they had received. This is a conclusion I have reached based on comparing these pictures both to earlier pics of my own and also looking at the CMON annual and othe people who paint wolfen on the site. I.e. I believe that Chern said all the pics that went into the book had scores of at least 8.2. I don\'t think that these pictures are really any worse than the ones that Vahilor or Lilli Troy have of their wolfen, in the book Lilli\'s Watcher in particular looks very rough in comparison to the pictures I\'ve posted.


So I\'m guessing that another issue is as Finn said that people are just getting harsher. I will continue to try and improve on the areas that I am weak in- blending being one, and also continue to try and get better pictures and composition with my camera. But it saddens me to think that at this rate I\'m not getting any closer to being in the next annual, which would be a major achievement and something that I\'m really trying to aim for.

Regards,

Kat

 

[Jenova]

Well, we all have stuff we need to work on (those bases are more than a year old btw )

Photos, well, I guess it depends on your program a lot. I have tried compressing in Microsoft Photo Editor and if I compress the pics just a little pit, they look awful!

The cheap program I got with my camera is much better. ???

As for the pics in the book, some of them look better on the screen and some look better in the book. Brushstrokes seems to be much more visible in printed pics.

People\'s voting. Yes, I think it has gotten harsher, but there are still pics getting 9.7 and there are still pics getting 3.2 so I guess the whole range is covered. How people vote is for them to decide. People focus on different things: Basing, colours, technique, photo quality. There are different preferences and different ideas, so there is really no such thing as a fair score. If it is important for you to be in the book, then maybe you will have to make sacrifices and change your style. I won\'t change my style, and it\'s really not that important to me weather I\'m in the next book or not. I guess it\'s just a choice that needs to be made

 

[kittykat23uk]

Jenova,

I use a combination of XN view and photoshop for photo editing. Maybe you\'re right. Maybe beacuse the level of high end painting has improved overall people are less impressed these day unless it\'s super smooth, has loads of freehand and amazing conversion work.

Though I am overall very happy with my fluffy puppies I wouldn\'t change the furry element, I\'ll work on the blending for sure and on the photograpy. It\'s very surprising and disheartening though to look back and see that you\'re scores have gone down, even though your painting has improved. To me it makes no sense. Ah well guess I\'ll just have to make do with the vagaries of CMON\'s voting eh? Bleh.

Regards

Kat

 

[U4-Welcome]

But it saddens me to think that at this rate I\'m not getting any closer to being in the next annual, which would be a major achievement and something that I\'m really trying to aim for.

Btw, has there been any confirmation or infirmation about next year\'s book ? When would the \'selections\' be ? If there\'s already a thread on this, just kick me into it with a link, no need to hijack this thread more than necessary lol.

 

[Flashman14]

Originally posted by finn17
1) As well as your own development...the overall standard on the site has increased IMO. So you would have to improve just to stand still if you see what I mean.

2) Confrontation weariness...? The \'wow\' factor has now gone I am afraid. I suspect people will have to work twice as hard to get the scores early Rackham painters achieved.

Ya - I think Finn\'s hit the nail on the head... they\'re so much impressive stuff on here that it\'s proportionally rare that something really stands above.

The very frequency of 4\'s seems way higher than it\'s ever been . . .unfairly I think - I don\'t vote less than 5 unless I would be embarrassed to field it on the tabletop but I see countless solid minis struggling for a 5...

 

[nornicle]

good on you!

First of all, it takes a very brave person to face up to critique of their pride and joy(s). So I respect you alot for that!!

I\'m probably a 6-7 painter atm, so don\'t take anything i say too seriously!

First of all,
Here are a couple of things I picked up while carefully studying your diorama

a) it\'s too busy! (you\'ll note that there is chaos diorama in here somewhere as well where each character is painted wonderfully, but is JUST TOO BUSY!)

reasons for busy-ness

1. smoother blending needed (more similar to your Syriak and your 2nd photo)
2. less gloss, maybe its a personal taste but I hate seeing any gloss sheen on miniatures.
3. colour coordination is off, I think one of the reasons people liked your syriak and esp your grave guard was not solely on painting skill but also because of use of complementary colours, e.g your Orc has green reds and blues which make him look rather garish in my opinion.

I\'ve been painting for nearly 8 years (on and off) and reading Chrispy\'s colour wheel article really put a new spin on things, if you haven\'t already maybe read that?

I noticed this colour coordination esp on your blue/yellow saurus(!)

4. too many characters in the scene, as compared to grave guard (which i really really like!)

2nd point would be light sourcing, I liked syriaks highlights etc (deep and from the top). I couldn\'t really tell from the orc which looked more like old school 90\'s GW highlighting (which isnt bad but not GD quality?)

My last point is, people ARE harsh in their voting around here, and from the looks of your miniatures you definitely look like you put alot of time and effort into them!

good work!!!!!

eedit : I meant opposite of complimentary, i meant you know next to each other on the colour wheel...

 

[kittykat23uk]

Hmmm...

You know, I\'ve always thought that I\'ve got a good eye for colour combos! Guess I\'m wrong in that assessment. The Lizard temple guard was deliberately colourful to fit in with the GW image. Also the picture I posted here oversaturated the yellow (it\'s a lot paler and less in yer face than it looks here!).

Its strange though because I thought that this one from Taban has a major problem:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/?id=21063

I love the NMM and it\'s really well executed and the photograpy and basing is first rate, but the yellow flesh tone is a terrible colour (I think) for a wolfen, and is not as well highlighted as the rest of the figure and yet its dong really well. There are also a lot of colours going on there, yellow, blue, greys, reds etc. I\'m guessing that the cleanness of it and the NMM carries this piece into the high 8\'s and despite the yellow of the flesh I\'d easily vote this a nine plus.

It will be interesing to see how my Howling pack will fair. They are all being based seperately at the moment and one of them (Saphyr) I went for an orange pelt that is very much like a dog (some kind of husky) I saw whilst in the city. I tried out the blue weapon look (that is on the Howling pack card to him) so I\'m guessing this will bomb! It was also a bad sculpt.

Agyar on the other hand is a very complimentary pallete and based on what you folks are telling me, he should do really well! (heres hoping) . Oh I also gave him a head swap operation because I didn\'t like the \"Biggles\" hood he was wearing. I forsee he\'ll be difficult to photograph though because if you get the head at a good angle, the weapon is edge on. :duh: I\'ve been practicing my freehand on the weapons of these two. I might post pics at the weekend.

This thread has certainly been an eye opener though and is giving me lots of food for thought!

Regards

Kat.

 

[nornicle]

i agree

i agree with you, the colour choice on the wolfen is but I think he got marked so highly because NMM and general ability.

I recall one of arjay\'s miniatures in the high 8\'s with brilliant nmm but really ordinary painting on all other parts, I\'ll see if I can find it.

maybe if I paint a 4 rater but with perfect nmm and light sourcing, i will also get 8+

that said, perfect nmm and light sourcing is hella tough, all my nmm looks like dulled cow dung rather than anything remotely metal...

 

[Braveheart712]

First off Kat, let me start out by saying that I think you are an excellent painter and your talents surpass mine. Thank being said please understand in my opinion why your scores seem low.

1) You have good solid technique, a steady hand, good outlining , and smooth blends. For this reason you work is much better than a 5, standard table top quality.
2) Your colors tend to be overly bright and too saturated. In nature bright colors are used to draw attention and for display purposes. They tend to be focal points because the contrast surrounding colors that are muted or dull earth tones. Look at some nature shot to see what I mean. In my opinion you painting tends to get too busy, too many bright vibrant colors that gives cofuses the eye and the focus of the piece. I think many people react poorly to this and tend to downscore your pieces due to this.
3) Lastly, some of the critics on here are very harsh. Most scores tend to be around 5 it seems and in order to break out of the \"table top\" classification you really need to dazzle the person scoring your mini. Besides, what does a score mean to you anyway? Personally I paint for relaxation and fun, it is nice to share with my peers here, but a bad score ( and I have several ) isn\'t something I really worry about too much.

Hope this helps, again I love your work, can\'t wait to see your next pieces!

 

[kittykat23uk]

Thanks Braveheart,

you know, I think some colours have come out oversaturated (the green and the red) on the recent pieces. They are no where near as bright IRL as they appear in the photo. I think I need to have a fiddle about with them in photoshop.

Edit: But despite this I found this pic:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/?id=26520

its at a 6.4 right now, and yet my solitaire is only 0.6 of a point higher. You can see on this obvious dry brushing, very glossy patches, bright colours blue and reds going on and to be honest I think it looks rather messy. Is there really only .6 of a difference in quality between this one and mine?

Regards

Kat???

 

[nornicle]

hehe

Kitty kat, I am starting to see your point!!!!

I just saw a red sorcerer with red hair, barely any high lights etc, glossy as heck and it scored 6.4 ???

Don\'t worry kat, you\'re stuff blows their\'s away

When I was rolling around in bed last night i was thinking \'it aint painting, its how COOL it is!\' - that\'s why i gave the fridge space hulk (see the EPIC) post a 10!

 

[kittykat23uk]

Yeah, some things just do not make any sense to me. You see plenty of minis with brighter colour schemes than these ones I\'ve done that score higher, even when the picture is blurry. Bizzarre!

I would like to thank everyone for their input though, and heres a summary of conclusions that I\'d like to share with you.

1. In general you all considered that the scores when I first posted these minis were lower than the minis deserved.

2. Comments on the orc indicate that the photo is worth around the 7 mark. It\'s currently a 6.3. Weak points are the right arm ( lack of smoothness), too many bright colours- red, green, blue? (the only blue is on his feathers). Part of this is caused by oversaturation of the red and green due to the camera, and artifacts caused by enhancing the focus. The rest is down to painting, which I\'ll be trying to improve upon. Overall composition of the photo also stands against it, because the background is distracting and bits are out of focus. NMM looks a bit flat too.

3. Comments on the diorama: Some of you think this deserves an 8-8.5 (its at a 7.5 now), others (Inge in particular) felt it was more of a 7. Comments against it is that the picture is too small to see all of the detail, too bright a green on the solitaire, and too bright colours on the orc. The diorama comes across as being a bit busy.

Well, I\'ve seen busier and brighter ones that have scored higher here, such as the howling pack that someone has recently posted:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/?id=34459


I don\'t think this one is too busy in comparison. For a diorama to work there has to be some kind of scene setting. But what I think might be something that people are subconciously picking up on is that the wolfen crossbow is camoflaged quite well against the whites and greys of the rock, and in comparison the other two, with their brighter pallette stick out like a sore thumb. So I\'m guessing that the colours in some places just clash with the muted tones of the overall scene.

4. Comments on the solitaire - I think overall you\'ve said this deserves to be around the 7\'s - (Inge) to 8.5s (steelcut and others). Weak points again, the green is too bright for some of you and the pic doesn\'t show this as being well highlighted. Blending and darklining are rough or lacking in places. Photo composition is not the best as the shadow is distracting.

I will try to address this by re-evaluating my use of colour and also try and work on photography and photo editing skills. Also try to improve my blending.

5. The wolfen crossbow 3 - Not much negative comment on this guy, just gotta work on the photos I think. Best of this batch? Comments suggest he should be in the 8 range but is currently low 7s.

6. Other factors influencing the score that I can\'t do much about. Overall standard has increased therefore have to work harder to improve scores.

7. Score sniping is more frequent/ people are harsher judges due to frequency of seeing great pieces on the site.

Once again, thanks for you comments, keep em coming! I\'ve got a few things to mull over and work on improving!


Regards

Kat

 

[Trevor]

I have a few thoughts:

Its an exponential scale. It gets harder and harder to get a higher score.

You need the WOW factor to score really highly. If its been done before your score will be lower.

Voting is definitely getting harsher (see above).

Its not just about the paint job, its about the sculpt, the picture, the base (something you do very well), the overall impact of the mini and most importantly the tastes of the voter. You can be the best painter in the world, but if someone dislikes Orcs thay are never gonna score an orc very highly.

Something I\'ve noticed is there are trends in the higher scoring minis. Bigger is better, dioramas are better, freehand is better, matt varnish is better, NMM flame is better, new minis are better, there are many things that will improve your score that have nothing to do with painting.

 

[Trevor]

I\'ve been following the first few votes on my Nurgle Terminator and its kind of weird, first vote was a 10, then its all over the place. I think I was right, its a matter of taste, its just some people don\'t have any :bouncy:

Really I think its the comments that are most important, if you just got straight 10\'s with no constructive criticism you wouldn\'t strive to do better. I\'d much rather a low score and some constructive comments than a bunch of high votes.

CMON is a VERY big pond, its hard to be the best in a big pond...

 

[kittykat23uk]

Thanks Trevor, I think you are right there, it is all about what people like. I have a couple of the Howling Pack finished, I shall be taking piccies soon.

Regards

Kat