Artist background vs naturals...

[electrolito 77]

On this one, how big do you think the advantage is from someone with an artist background over one with none, just natural skill?

I think it is pretty obvious, but someone has to disagree at some point. Someone with an artistic background has in my opinion a huge advantage over someone with none. For example, I have had 0 experience with art on a classroom environment, still I kinda have a clue of how shadowing, highlighting, cutting, sculpting should go. Still my methods are not the greatest nor are they the most efective if I may say. The point being, if I had some proffesional aid to help me understand how it all works starting with the basics, my skills would have that much more of a difference when it comes to quality, cleanliness and effectiveness. I do not know for sure, but I am willing to bet that the top artists in this site, most have had some type artistic education or college degree in art that put them that far above the rest of us wannabe`s. What do you think? ???

 

[Ogrebane]

Well I have no experience as a professional artist except for what art I took in high school. Id say some naturals are brilliant but the majority of us have to work damn hard just top score a 7. JMHO tho. Where Vike he\'ll disagree on form.

 

[cdukino]

Oke my take. Forgive me the rant...

First of all natural skill (which will get learned skill as well just by using it and doesn\'t mean it comes easy... usually they still have to work very hard for it.... they just progress faster and the work will have a higer quality faster... but won\'t come for free I think) will usually beat just learned skills as those have to resort to tricks instead of a natral feel for it.

I do have an artistic background. But that does not say that the actuall teaching will help you much with painting miniatures. Or much with drawing, painting and painting in general really.Atleast not the school I attended. Might have been different if you get a classical schooled arts school (but most aren\'t like that nowadays) In fact i dare say that 95% of what i know and the skills I have have nothing to do with the 3 years of in school study and actually guidance by the teachers to become being an arts teacher. It are all side effects and my own initiative.

Let me explain.
In fact in the 3 years I did get no, and I mean no technique lessons or help worth mentioning with it.
Basically The point being, I did not had some proffesional aid to help me understand how it all works starting with the basics... they skipped that and hardly gave any attention to it. Assuming it was something we all knew or could learn ourselves or we wouldn\'t be there to begin with (a lot of art schools here you have to show work you made to get accepted). So all the techniques I know for drawing, painting and all that I teached myself. I don\'t have an idea they actually did teach me anything to make a skill better or my practical understanding of actually making art. What they did (try to) do is make my scope wider. look out of the ordenary and supply tricky art projects (more conceptual then skill wise though... as they didn\'t care for instance if I just glued a dress together instead of nicely and technically well sew it together... it was the idea that counted... the technique was much much less important) and let me try to figure it all out myself. They were kinda high on modern art and the story and concept behind it all. The medium for them was just a tool... and a tool we could and just should learn ourselves. Was a waste of their time... there were plenty of do it yourself books and we just had to practice that ourselves in our spare time.

Maybe I have had a wierd school (I certainly think so), but maybe if you have a classical teaching. Like actually getting in depth colour theorie, practice with guidance how to blend, which colours go together and all that it might make you a better miniaturepainter.

Well to be totally honest... you are bound to pick up something from a study like I did. If not from the teachers as such then from your fellow students tacling the same problems... see how they do it. And usually people following these studies are for a part already tallented and interested in the techical part too and have practiced and learned some stuff by themselves or other ways... as someone with 2 left hands and no tallent probably would not pester himself picking a study like this. You are afterall forced to do more selfstudy then you might have otherwise and try things you otherwise might not have. Which will naturally improve your technical skill to by simply using it and being forced to find it out yourself right there and then. Some of those things could with practice be applied to painting and sculpting miniatures... even if you can\'t use it one on one. And I did get a chance to work with life models (even though a typical example of how learning went and the farest extent of the teachers help was: here draw her... you get 10 minutes ... and then you are on your own (anatomy lessons anyone?... well he did put a book on the table but didn\'t get time too look into it, but I did get to practice what I studied at home out of my own free will).

After all a big huge part of becomming skilled is look at other peoples work, copy, annalyse and practice, practice and practice some more. It\'s all about you wanting to learn yourself, look up stuff you don\'t know, put time and efford in it. With or without artistic schooling.

 

[Ogrebane]

I still think that formal training will out in the end. Like most drawing shading coloring whatever can be applied to most types of art be it canvas, drawing or minis etc so whilst there is the occasional freaky talent I think training helps more than natural talent.

I was wondering cdukino if you took a breath whilst typing that. I just imagined you saying it all in one go. Cheers.

 

[cdukino]

hahah... yeah i did take a breath... took me quit a while to type that actually.

Natural talent helps... but it needs to be trained. Having loads of natural talent and never doing anything with it gets you nowhere. Just like having no natural talent doesn\'t mean you are screwed... practice and such can make you very good. Practice makes perfect.
How much training/art school/formal training helps depends on the training and how well it\'s done and what exactly has been teached an how.

But if the definition is: Someone with an artistic background, be it a good art school or selfstudy, experience in other creative area\'s and arts then miniatures (which definatly does not have to come from formal education) does have a headstart when picking up a miniature for the first time as he doesn\'t have to start from scratch. That I sure agree to.

 

[Hoblit]

The way I look at is similar to professional sport. While talent will help, without training and practice, you will not be able to achieve anything.

admittedly, you could be better than most people, but there will be those who have less talent put in the hours (days, years) required who will do better than those with more talent.

And nowadays, most of the \"formal training\" can be gotten hold of off the internet if you know where to look and are willing to read.

 

[philologus]

But the big question is: how much do you (not you Cindy; just in general) owe in student loans for a formal art education and what kind of money do you earn as a result.

electrolito: I see you are located in FayetteNam. Are you by chance in the military?

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Ogrebane
Well I have no experience as a professional artist except for what art I took in high school. Id say some naturals are brilliant but the majority of us have to work damn hard just top score a 7. JMHO tho. Where Vike he\'ll disagree on form.

NOT TRUE! I fall into that same exact bucket you describe...High School art....

In fact, that is one of the reasons I have always liked CMoN\'s forums....It\'s got a very similar vibe to what my old art classes were like. A bunch of us talking about a random assortment of things, all the while working on our little projects....I have referred to the site as Miniatures 101 for that very reason.

I must confess though also I did take a Art School Correspondence course once... Have you ever seen the little matchbooks or comic books ad\'s that have a turtle or pirate on them saying \"CAN YOU DRAW ME\"?

Well, I \'graduated\' from that school, called the Art Instruction School. Can\'t say it was any more instructional than my High School was.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by supervike

Originally posted by Ogrebane
Well I have no experience as a professional artist except for what art I took in high school. Id say some naturals are brilliant but the majority of us have to work damn hard just top score a 7. JMHO tho. Where Vike he\'ll disagree on form.

NOT TRUE! I fall into that same exact bucket you describe...High School art....

In fact, that is one of the reasons I have always liked CMoN\'s forums....It\'s got a very similar vibe to what my old art classes were like. A bunch of us talking about a random assortment of things, all the while working on our little projects....I have referred to the site as Miniatures 101 for that very reason.

I must confess though also I did take a Art School Correspondence course once... Have you ever seen the little matchbooks or comic books ad\'s that have a turtle or pirate on them saying \"CAN YOU DRAW ME\"?

Well, I \'graduated\' from that school, called the Art Instruction School. Can\'t say it was any more instructional than my High School was.

Those schools are awesome. I tried to get rejected from their application process. I drew a rather scandalous and compromising version of the turtle one time. I was \"accepted\" Great stuff.

 

[penguin]

It is an interesting topic.

While I have little artistic background, I have found looking at miniatures and reading about how to paint them has also helped me realise the work and kind of thinking that goes into other art forms, so I am finding that I appreciate it more.

I think I have little talent in the field of miniature painting, but I work damn hard and practice too, so hopefully I will be quite good one day

Happy painting! (haven\'t said that in a while!)

~Bill

 

[tzor]

I think there is an advantage, but it\'s not as obvious as one might think. It\'s like a person who has learned the piano being better at playing the violin than someone who has never played any instrument. Well at least he knows how to read music.

The same is true for most art classes and mini painting. All those lessons on how to visualize 3 dimensions on a 2 dimensional canvas isn\'t going to help when you are again on a 3 dimensional mini, unless you are doing some real fancy stuff there. Color theory is definitely a big plus, the wrong color choices can make or break a mini.

But the biggest thing is that you as a part of your classes have practiced the art of fine strokes, whether by pen, pencil or brush, that\'s a whole lot of muscle memory that helps one out. Unless your major was wall murals that is.

 

[matty1001]

Art at my school was mainly just copying some artists works, stick a bit of card or quality street wrappers on and hey presto, a \'B\' grade. In the end i just got bored and ended up with a C. But what i much prefered was graphic design (Which i got my A level results for today, and im going to do a degree in Editorial design in sept!!! :beer:Yeah!!!) because it was all my ideas which were developed, changed, constructed, and finalised which to me is like painting a mini, you have to plan and be able to take criticism to create your final design or mini. I have been painting for 2month now and my first mini\'s on CMoN were averaged at about 4-5 now with criticism and improvments i can just touch a 6!

 

[automaton]

hi everyone,

I\'ve never done any art at all - I didn\'t even do any art in school. But now I wish I had studied art at school or something, because I love mini painting so much that I think I would have enjoyed some art somewhere along the way!

I think I have picked up some sort of rudimentary theory though, mainly from sites like this online. I read so many mini painting articles, and admire so many great miniatures from the amazing painters out there, that I feel like I\'m getting some sort of method or theory drilled into me! I have found that I have learnt most just by trying to copy painting that I admire, or by trying to put things I see online into practice.

So to go back to the original question: I think that some sort of formal art training probably makes a difference in that it provides a good start, or skill base; in my experience though, just practicing and trying things, constantly pushing yourself to make your painting better, is the main factor in good painting - so I think that enthusiasm for painting is more important than anything!

 

[Torn blue sky]

Natural talent\'s a great thing to have, but it has to be nurtured to grow. Iv\'e never had much more than the rest of you in form of tutorials in art at school. Most of what iv\'e learned has been self tought through practice and common sense (I.E; If i mix this and that, what will happen?).
I wanted to go to art school but my old man hated all the flouncy art students lol
Typical army bloke

 

[frenchkid]

I think artistic understand is essential. If you already have it in you\'re background, well you\'re off to a good start. If not studying art will definetly help.

 

[StarFyre]

i think...

many of the french painters should answer this as from what Jeremie posted some time ago, one advantage they have is that some ofthem are trained artists from university...

Not just pure hobbyists, if that makes sense...

Other than natural talent, alot of the theory of movement, lighting, shadows, and technique are taught in some classes.
Would this not help more in depth than just reading articles and practicing? Since a trained artist ALSO practices, but the theory is in addition to this.

Sanjay

 

[cdukino]

Originally posted by StarFyre

Other than natural talent, alot of the theory of movement, lighting, shadows, and technique are taught in some classes.
Would this not help more in depth than just reading articles and practicing? Since a trained artist ALSO practices, but the theory is in addition to this.

Sanjay

If the school teaches that... yes I definatly agree. I wish I had that at my art school. I\'m even doubting wether or not to seak out other classes to fill in the void of my education. But if you look on the net and in bookstores a lot of this can be found. You just have to be willing to put time and efford in it to read and study it. But ofcourse having a real life person to help you and teach you would be a plus. And without a school to back it up or a person to guide you through it can be hard to find the motivation and willpower to go on when you don\'t feel like it for a bit.

 

[Rodnik]

If you train a pursuit, it definately helps----but it\'s by no means required.

The only measure I have is myself----

No art training (None..nip..nada...zip).

Picked up my *first* brush about 2 years ago. Can\'t recall ever picking one up before then, for any reason.

Have already accomplished demon-competitive level paint (now if I can just win one).

I have no \"natural talent\"-----my progress so far I attribute to one thing:

Putting my ass in the chair and painting.

At the point I reach the apex of my skill, it will attributed to one thing:

Putting my ass in the chair and painting.

If ever I learn to sculpt, I suspect it will be because I put my ass in the chair and sculpted.

Anyway...I firmly believe there is absolutely *no* substitute for ass in the chair time. It will provide more progress, and faster progress, than anything else.

Art training----it\'s putting a student\'s ass in the chair and making him do his chosen art. Then explaining what makes it look better (theory, skill developments, etc). Then, he/she puts his ass in the chair again and fixes it.

Under any circumstance, it\'s ass in the chair time that wins out.

Kev

 

[Dragonsreach]

Did art for 4 years at school........Can\'t say I learned anything because it was the 60\'s and lessons were \"Unstructured!\"

What I\'ve learned about painting miniatures has come from Self study, Internet and Discussions with other painters.

Oh and I mustn\'t forget watching Bob Ross.

 

[mistamick]

Originally posted by Penguin
It is an interesting topic.

While I have little artistic background, I have found looking at miniatures and reading about how to paint them has also helped me realise the work and kind of thinking that goes into other art forms, so I am finding that I appreciate it more.

I think I have little talent in the field of miniature painting, but I work damn hard and practice too, so hopefully I will be quite good one day

Happy painting! (haven\'t said that in a while!)

~Bill

Lies, all lies. He\'s one of the best in our class, and the teacher\'s favourite. I\'m one of the worst.