Astrology: Fact or Fiction?

[Nelson]

Well I\'ll be damned!

According to Eric\'s link, it seems I like \"hobbies,\" while I dislike failure, opposition, \"being told what to do,\" and \"aggravating situations!\"

How telling....:moon:

@Markus

Okay, I\'ve done some research, and I\'ve come up with a disturbing discovery. According to my birthdate (July 9, 1988) this charming fellow should be quite similar to me. lol His favourite show is Laguna Beach? He liked \"Titanic?\" One of his favourite quotes is \"If you pet my stick it will spit!\"



I\'m just dubious about how much gravitational affect a large planet, sun, etc. could have on you. Regardless of size, don\'t the huge distances kinda relegate them to having the same awesome effect as the doctors, nurses, and tables in the hospital room?

For that matter, if genetics determine your body (and mind, to some extent) then according to astrology, wouldn\'t the exact time of your conception matter far more? You\'re already well on your way to being complete when you get popped out....???

 

[MarkusTay]

Originally posted by Rab
Sorry Markus, but you\'re wrong on that, the only \'universal\' force is gravity, the electromagnetic and strong & weak nuclear forces act on charged particles, and sub-atomic particles respectively. Only gravity acts on all matter, irrespective of type and at the sub-atomic level, gravity is so weak as to be virtually ignored.

Gravity is an extremely weak force, it\'s only around truly massive bodies that the effect is observeable. Whilst it\'s true that human beings generate gravitational forces, they are so small as to be immeasureable. Bending light is no great trick, the spectacles that I\'m wearing right now, bend light as do prisms, fibre optic cables, the Earth\'s atmosphere and water.

Doubtful, otherwise we\'d be taller when the moon was directly overhead.

So, the Earth\'s massive oceans are unaffected by this trivial force?

You\'re presuming that there is a \'spiritual\' aspect to humanity, which is debateable in itself. As for the celestial objects \'pulling at us\', the only heavenly bodies to exert a measureable effect on us are the Sun, the Earth, the Moon and, to a tiny extent, Venus.

This is the part there\'s no evidence for, no-one has ever provided a convincing argument for the time and place of birth determining a person\'s characteristics. Vague references to celestial bodies, gravity and quantum physics just don\'t cut it as a scientific explanation.
In order to be a true science, astrology has to be able to make predictions from a hypothesis and then test those predictions in experiments, if that can\'t be done then it isn\'t a science, it\'s a belief system. This is where astrology appears to fall down, it provides no testable theories and therefore cannot be falsified and as such, cannot be regarded as a science.

When I was a teenager I knew this woman who claimed to have a \'pet\' ghost. His name was Hermy. She said she had met him while locked in a basement all alone for several days when she was a child. She was a little weird, but MANY people (including myself) witnessed objects moving by themselves whenever she was around. I asked my father to do her chart, to see if he could \'find\' this ghost. When he was done he discovered that there was no ghost. She had been severly abused as a child, something she hadn\'t shared with anyone. In fact, that is why she was locked in the basement. It was one of the many creative ways her father used to punish her. This childhood trauma caused her to develop a second personality; Hermy. The only difference between her case and most others is that she was mildly telekinetic, and this ability manifested itself only in the \'Hermy\' persona. My father explained this all to her, and she told her therapist. After a few more sessions the doctor was able to determine there was a second personality, rather then her having an imaginary friend into adulthood as he previously supposed. You don\'t have to believe me, but I know it happened because I was there. My father also told a friend of my wife\'s she had an abortion when she was a teenager, something NO ONE, not even her parents or best friends were aware of. I\'ve seen my father do other scarey things, and he hints at knowing the exact moment of his own death.

Please don\'t judge things you haven\'t experienced personally. Like I said before, the Horoscopes people usually read have very little to do with true Astrology.

Probably not, if the effects at a quantum level are taken into account (as you claim they must be) then Heisenberg\'s Uncertainty Principle comes into play and as such, no exact prediction of the outcome of any event can be made.

There is a electro-magnetic field around all things, and all fields DO affect each other. I\'ve purposely put in red anything you have said that leans toward uncertainty... virtually, immeasurable, etc... just because these forces aren\'t quantifiable by us then they don\'t matter, huh? If there is a soul, just for arguments sake, then how can we possibly know how small a force affects it? Also, We are talking about vast numbers of heavenly bodies in true Astrology, not just the few that are close to us. So, a flea bite might not have much of an effect on you, by a hundred million of them might make you take notice.

That got a bit heavy didn\'t it? I\'m not getting at you Markus, but it bugs me when people use incorrect scientific assertions to prop up un-scientific theories. There may be something to astrology, it\'s certainly possible, maybe in the future new evidence will come to light which will prove the theory, but at this point in time, none of our existing physical laws support it.

As I have stated, I don\'t understand physics. But it doesn\'t mean it\'s not there...

Oh, in case you hadn\'t guessed yet, I don\'t believe in astrology

Rab.

Are you a Christian? The wise men followed the stars to find the Birth of Jesus, you know...


Oh yea of little faith... lol


BTW, I\'m not a religous fanatic or a metaphysical nutter, it\'s just that my upbringing has left me very open minded when it comes to esoteric knowledge.

I personally don\'t follow astrology because I don\'t want to know anything. kinda takes the fun outta life, know what I mean?

@Nelson - I should have mentioned, the exact location of your birth also makes a difference. There are different stars over one side of the planet then there are on the other. Also, someone born at 8:15 in the morning would be very different from someone born at 8:15 at night. The universe is constantly changing, so no two people, not even identical twins, would be exactly the same personality wise.

 

[monolith]

Astrology is one of my pet peeves. And, like all other fields that attract both believers and sceptics alike, is completely unprovable one way or the other.

But, just because I think it\'s a load of stinking giblets doesn\'t mean you shouldn\'t believe.

Do whatever makes you happy, and sod the stars I say. I am who I am because my parents made me this way, along with genetics. I don\'t want to get into a long and heated debate about this, so I\'m just going to agree to disagree with those of you who\'re keen on astrology. I think religion is bollocks, too, but I don\'t make a point of saying so.

Someone\'s beliefs are their business, just like their politics, and how they choose to live. I don\'t go around preaching to people about the joys of scepticism, or how much fun accepting miniature painting will bring to their lives. I\'d like it a whole lot if people would do the same for me. (I have to walk past the hare krishnas some days when I\'m in the city. I do not want a copy of the bhagavad gita thankyou very much. Then there\'s the streetcorner godbotherers, who I also ignore.)

I did not intend this to be a personal attack on anyone. It\'s just my opinion.

 

[Duende]

Originally posted by monolith
I did not intend this to be a personal attack on anyone. It\'s just my opinion.

Don\'t worry about it. monolith. That\'s why I started this thread, to learn people\'s opinions. Just because you don\'t agree with someone else\'s opinion doesn\'t mean it\'s a personal attack.

Like I said, I\'m of two minds on it myself. My scientific half says if it can\'t be reliably tested and proven, it\'s a bunch of malarky, but then the irrational part of me does have all my crazy belief and supertitions. After all, why am I still afraid of the dark, even if I know nothing is there. :duh:

:idea: <-- (gotta keep that light on!)

 

[philologus]

I read a book once that talked about the influence of the solar wind\'s negatively and positively charged particles; and how their ratio affects the zygote at conception. The book had diagrams that showed how the solar wind was composed of 12 distinct patterns that corresponded with the 12 signs 10 months after conception. I suppose premature or late births could muck up the readings.

As for the stars affecting us. I don\'t believe it. BUT how about us affecting the stars?

Consider the Bible:

re:MarkusTay is correct about the Magi following the course of celestial bodies to find the Christ child. The Magi would have been familiar with the writings of Daniel the prophet who prophesied the birth of Christ. Daniel served under Babylonian Kings and after the Persian defeat of Babylon the wise warrior priests of Persia would no doubt have studied his writings.
The book of Psalms suggests in Psalm 82 that the rage of kings has caused the Earth to be out of course (precessional movement?).

Read Job 38:32, and Gen 1:14 for astrological hints.

Something to ponder.

 

[philologus]

Sorry for the double post!

I just looked at the link on astrology given above.

I knew I was born on the same day as Kurt Vonnegut; but it\'s also Dostoyevsky\'s and General Patton\'s B-days as well!

Incidentally, in the US we call 11-11 Veteran\'s Day. It used to be Armistice Day. The Armistice having been signed at 11:00 on the 11th day of the 11th month. I was born at that time!

Kurt Vonnegut was an Infantryman
I was an Infantryman

Cool huh?

 

[E-Arkham]

Be careful here, people.

There is no scientific proof that anything in astrology is remotely true, but then there is also no scientific proof that a god -- any god at all -- exists.

What all belief systems have in common is faith.

Making disparaging remarks about someone else\'s faith while having faith in something yourself is quite frankly hypocrisy.

Myself, I don\'t have any interest in astrology. That\'s all I\'ll say on it.

Kep

 

[Rab]

Originally posted by MarkusTay

Please don\'t judge things you haven\'t experienced personally. Like I said before, the Horoscopes people usually read have very little to do with true Astrology.

I made no judgements, I corrected a number of mistakes you made relating to physics and the forces thereof, and stated that astrology cannot be considered a science, which it cannot.

There is a electro-magnetic field around all things, and all fields DO affect each other.

Well first you mentioned gravity, now you\'ve switched to electromagnetism. I re-iterate, the electromagnetic force only effects charged particles, not all objects have an electromagnetic field associated with them.

I\'ve purposely put in red anything you have said that leans toward uncertainty... virtually, immeasurable, etc... just because these forces aren\'t quantifiable by us then they don\'t matter, huh?

I deliberately used those terms because to do otherwise would be dishonest, but yes, those forces, in those instances, are so small that they can be ignored. To bestow forces, that cannot be measured, with such significance is an anathema as far a science is concerned. If it has an effect, then it must be measureable, that is one of the cornerstones of scientific thought and is one of the reasons that astrology cannot be considered a science.

If there is a soul, just for arguments sake, then how can we possibly know how small a force affects it?

This is philosphy, not science, the soul, if it exists, must be ethereal and outwith the realm of physics and as such won\'t be affected by physical forces at all. If it were we would be able to measure it and more to the point, locate it\'s position in the body.

Also, We are talking about vast numbers of heavenly bodies in true Astrology, not just the few that are close to us. So, a flea bite might not have much of an effect on you, by a hundred million of them might make you take notice.

A poor analogy, the gravitational effect of any object outwith our solar system is zero on a human scale. The effects are not cumulative in the manner of insect bites and how do you decide which objects to include? The visible ones? What about neutron stars? Invisible to the naked eye but they exert a massive gravitational force.

As I have stated, I don\'t understand physics. But it doesn\'t mean it\'s not there...

I agree, but the difference is that physics has hard, empirical data to support it, backed up by experimentation, astrology does not.

Are you a Christian? The wise men followed the stars to find the Birth of Jesus, you know...

No, I\'m not a christian, nor a follower of any other faith and I don\'t see what that has to do with anything. Tellingly, the magi are only mention in one of the scriptures, Matthew, the others make no mention of them whatsoever.

BTW, I\'m not a religous fanatic or a metaphysical nutter, it\'s just that my upbringing has left me very open minded when it comes to esoteric knowledge.

I\'m open minded too, that\'s why I wrote that \"at this point in time\" there\'s no evidence to support the theory that astrology functions as a science. If someone discovers a new theory, force or physical law that supports astrology then great, it would be a fantastic tool. Until then, it belongs in the same realm as clairvoyancy and ghosts, interesting but currently unproveable.

I personally don\'t follow astrology because I don\'t want to know anything. kinda takes the fun outta life, know what I mean?

At that\'s where astrology doesn\'t jive with quantum theory, whether you subscribe to the Copehagen Interpretation or the Many Worlds theory, quantum physics states that the universe is deterministic, events that haven\'t happened yet, haven\'t happened, making the future unknowable.

I\'m going to bed now, it\'s 1:20 in the morning here.

Nice debating with you Makus

 

[MarkusTay]

We were having a debate? ???

lol

I was just answering one side of a question, only because thanks to my dad I actually know about it. In fact, I\'m a veritable warehouse of useless facts on a plethora of inane subjects. lol I could have just as easily argued the other side, but you seem much better equiped for that.

Like I said, I don\'t follow astrology, my dad does. When you start trying to debate \'immeasurable\' things you start to enter the realm of faith. So I agree with you, it\'s not a science, just a practice that has been around for thousands of years.

I only mentioned electro-magnetic fields because you mentioned electro magnetism. I\'m not a physicist, but I was under the assumption that they were closely related to gravitational fields. Doesn\'t a very strong Electro-magnetic field generate its own gravity? ???

I\'m working with someone who\'s knowledge of religion and metaphysics far out-strips my own. The man actually has a doctorite from the Vatican college and can read/understand several ancient tongues. I\'m trying to establish a Unified Arcane Theory, in much the same way as one would write a scientific theorem. My only problem is my own scientific knowledge is not specific enough for me to finish. I have tried to enlist my brother, who has studied the works of Tesla and is an electronics genius, but since he is one of those born-agains that think D&D is evil I can\'t count on his help. Very unfortunate, because I have some interesting yet unprovable theories about magic, religion and science...

Oh well... I guess the dolphins will have to wait a few more years for their answer... lol

Nice rapping with ya\' Rab,

Peace - Mark

 

[No Such Agency]

I read a book once that talked about the influence of the solar wind\'s negatively and positively charged particles; and how their ratio affects the zygote at conception. The book had diagrams that showed how the solar wind was composed of 12 distinct patterns that corresponded with the 12 signs 10 months after conception. I suppose premature or late births could muck up the readings.

OK, I too don\'t want to insult anyone... I can totally understand why people would believe that celestial objects influence one *spiritually*. It\'s a common feature of many religions (at least the animistic and polytheistic ones, less so in \"people of the Book\" and othe monotheistic faiths). But sadly, most attempts to explain things like astrology with science sound like a load of hooey... because they are hooey. If you want to look for events surrounding your birth that influence who you are, it\'s better to look for more prosaic ones here on Earth - did your mom sing to you as a baby, or did she abandon you to smoke crack? Were you raised with love or coldness? Were you born in a toxic waste watershed? Were your parents closely related?

I\'m being silly here but my point is that if you look at the issue scientifically, the greatest influences on you are the ones closest to you, not weak gravitational effects of some faraway star, or solar wind from which we are shielded by our planet\'s magnetosphere anyway.

 

[Duende]

I share my birthday with Barbara Steisand!

Does that make me \"like butter\" as well!!??

lol

I don\'t want anybody getting defensive or offensive here. I only wanted to know people\'s opinions, no need to attempt ot prove or disprove anything. Keep this up and soon we\'ll be having a discussion on the existence of and nature of the human soul. EEek!

I\'ll be happy just being like butter.

 

[EricJ]

Religion is based on faith in a higher power

Astrology is based on faith in a higher order

Science is based on faith that our senses are reliable, that we actually are observing and measuring reality.

Maybe science is easier to believe, and is the only one of these three that offers proof of it\'s existence mearly because it\'s a better trick, when ultimately it\'s based on faith just like the other two.

 

[MarkusTay]

Thank you Eric. Very to-the-point.

And now, I\'m about to wake up from my dream, so you can all just go away...

lol:bouncy::flip:

@Duende - I like butter. Much more delicious and real then crappy old margarine.

\"You don\'t bring me flowers...\"

 

[E-Arkham]

Originally posted by EricJ
Religion is based on faith in a higher power

Astrology is based on faith in a higher order

Science is based on faith that our senses are reliable, that we actually are observing and measuring reality.

Maybe science is easier to believe, and is the only one of these three that offers proof of it\'s existence merely[sic] because it\'s a better trick, when ultimately it\'s based on faith just like the other two.

You\'re trying to undermine anything quantifiable here by calling into question perception itself, leaving faith as the only constant. One could counter argue this, for example, by saying humans don\'t breathe or eat faith for survival as we do air and food. Then the expected response to the counter argument is that a need for food and air is only a trick of perception; that reality as we individually accept it does not exist, or that reality is a \"dream within a dream.\" Or something else equally metaphysical.

That claim is purely philosophical in nature and as such is a non sequitor.

As with religion, it is impossible to prove or disprove such a philosophical approach. You have in essence created a pseudo-religion. Meanwhile, an inch is still an inch no matter who holds the ruler. This is repeatable across space and time and in different hands and perceptions. If we are not measuring \"reality\" with a ruler, then certainly we are measuring \"non-reality\" consistently despite varying perceptions and have thus established a quantifiable baseline for further observations.

If you were to take the philosophical argument one step further -- that existence is the dream of a single person, mutable to his or her will and therefore always consistent within itself -- then you have just successfully argued that all things -- including faith -- are equal in their meaninglessness when applied outside that singular realm. Congratulations.

Kep

 

[No Such Agency]

*** head explodes in a shower of goo ***

 

[EricJ]

Originally posted by E-Arkham

then you have just successfully argued that all things -- including faith -- are equal in their meaninglessness when applied outside that singular realm. Congratulations.

Kep

Well, from a different perspective, that makes all things equally meaningful and equally valid, and should someone wish, they can use each and all of these things to enrich their lives

 

[Duende]

I do have some unusual beliefs of my own..

Like, that the world is only a group idea of what everyone percieves inside their own minds. And what is real is only what everybody agrees to be real. Because the idea of \"the world\" is only what each individual has as collected information inside their own mind. So inside everybody\'s mind is an entire \"world\" and everybody you interact with becomes a part of your world, and you a part of theirs (unless some kind of head trauma makes them forget )

So NSA\'s quote of

*** head explodes in a shower of goo ***

means we just lost a world in one bang.

*** cue dirge music ***

 

[Naukhel]

*looks down at his shirt and sighs, trying to wipe NSA brain goo off*
Does it never end?

----

Right then. I don\'t know much about Astrology, beyond my sign (moon child), and that I\'m a Pig according to the chinese (or is it japanese?) horoscope.

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by MarkusTay
I only mentioned electro-magnetic fields because you mentioned electro magnetism. I\'m not a physicist, but I was under the assumption that they were closely related to gravitational fields. Doesn\'t a very strong Electro-magnetic field generate its own gravity? ???

Not an argument, just a clarification on the forces in question. There are four fundamental forces that we have observed, none of them related to each other at our \'low energy\' existance. They are the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, gravity and the electromagnetic force. When the universe was young, <3 secs old, some of these were united, and in particle accelerators we have simulated such high-energy conditions at which some of these forces become the same force. This is described in so called Grand Unification Theories. In our world, these four forces are distinct and do not affect each other, though they may affect the same particles.

We believe that we have an understanding of all the forces, except for gravity. And in these GUT\'s, all the forces combine, except for gravity. We do not know what gravity is, how it transfers force or how it works over such incredibly long distances. So-called messenger particles have been found that transfer force for the other three forces, but the hypothesised gravitron has not been observed and remains a theoretical entity. But we do know that it is the weakest of all the four forces.

Perhaps it would be useful to view gravity in the relativistic model, as opposed to the quantum model we have so far been assuming. In the relativistic model, the presence of mass bends space, making a straight line no longer a straight line when this path is nearby mass. This curvature of space is called gravity. Now it becomes easy to see how gravity can affect light, light is simply following a straight path in 3 dimensions, but since space is bent, the path is bent, but still straight in 3 dimensions. Assuming that the 4th dimension is time, then gravity works in a 5th and possibly higher dimensions, something that few people can attempt to imagine, and definitely something that Astrology does not take into account. Astrology is a 3-dimensional theory. The curious thing is, in this relativistic model of gravity, gravity ceases to become a force, but we observe and measure its effects as a force.

This is really fascinating stuff, I study it while doing my maths degree. It\'s well worth making a good read of Stephen Hawking\'s books, A Brief History of Time, and The Universe in a Nutshell. They really do make higher physics accessible to the clueless masses. :duh:

Hello? Anyone still awake?

 

[Sturmhalo]

Originally posted by MarkusTay

And now, I\'m about to wake up from my dream, so you can all just go away...

Dreams... now there\'s something... last night I dreamed I was going to give a young Jenny Agutter a damn good screwing on my living room floor... sadly a couple of heroin addicts had crashed out there and left needles lying around, they went upstairs after making their apologies, but Jenny then turned into a small rag doll and one of my ex\'s parents turned up... spoilt the atmos really.

As for astrology and any other belief system, I guess it\'s nice to think there\'s more to our world than is apparent, but a lot of people find these things because they need a crutch in their lives. Seen it many times regarding religion and experienced it myself with occult bull shit. Then again, I guess a fantasy is far more rewarding than reality. Things that are subjective are easily moulded in our own favour.