Breastplatestretcher
New member
Some leaks for hero box one and two have dropped, and I think it's high time that we discuss what we have seen and wildly speculate about what we haven't.
Baratheon expansions
- Thread starter Breastplatestretcher
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Breastplatestretcher
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I couldn't find the other sides for the NCU's but I've been told that Selyse and Shireen are 4 pts, while Estermont is 3.
AnorexicShark
New member
i bought this faction purely for melisandre 
Breastplatestretcher
New member
My two cents is that R'hllor will probably have some mechanic that requires them to take wounds as a "sacrifice" of sorts. I bet Melisandre's ability either only affects R'hllor, or has some benefit for them. I bet there will be some synergies between Melisandre and the wife+daughter.
stonehorse
New member
Any news on the unit card for the cavalry we have seen previewed?
Oakwolf
Member
Nothing so far, but i bet they'll be the closest thing to pre-change Flayed men (2+ defense, critical blow and some warhammer rule).
About the R'hllor thing...can't wait to learn more about what it will do. Even the current Stannis's tactic cards don't do anything with the keyword. Obviously Melisandre will have some kind of powerful effect, but i expected assassination rather than influence. Then again, isn't there a different Stannis miniature in that box? Perhaps one that is more focused on R'hllor...
Breastplatestretcher
New member
Yes there was chatter about a lord of light stannis, which I assume is in this box based on what I and others saw at gencon. My guess is that he will be an attachment and melisandre will be an NCU commander, but who knows.
Mein Fury
New member
Of the 4, my favorite is Estermont, but unfortunately I don't play Renly (of course). Given the lack of trigger diversity in the Baratheon deck, it's like you need to draw more just to have a shot at a good mix in your hand. The ability to draw 3 cards and pick 2 that you want when you claim any zone is real good. For a 3-point NCU it's great. If I played Renly, he would be potentially an auto-include in all of my lists. Of the two brothers though, I actually think Stannis needs an ability like this even more. None of Renly's cards double up on existing triggers.
That's why I would prefer Melisandre's ability to be something like "Vision in the Flames" that lets you pull cards you want out of your deck, while revealing a card in your opponent's hand. Something like that. But I suppose that type of ability could also be given to Axell Florent who was a zealot. Or alternatively for Mel, I'd be happy with "The Night is dark and full of Terrors" (more likely title tbh) that reduces the ability of the enemy somehow. Some more control abilities would be nice, rather than 100% "wound yourself to do more damage" abilities. Clearly the theme they're going with for Stannis, and it makes the 4 cards in his deck that trigger on destroyed units that much more useful perhaps. I just would like the option to nudge the play-style slightly in other directions.
Of the two Stannis characters shown here, I guess I like Devon's ability better, though we have yet to see what the R'hllor keyword can really do, so I could change my tune. The Baratheons mostly don't mind getting charged, but they do have or will have a couple of units that do like to charge. Having played mostly Starks, it's super frustrating when you declare an important charge and they make it fail. Charges are an important mechanic in the game, so to be denied one you really need is rough. I wish I had had Devon in the last couple games so that I could have passed those charge rolls with flying colors. I would have gladly taken those D3 wounds with a skip in my 6" step.
I'd definitely like to see a couple of the characters as commanders so that I can potentially use Stannis as an attachment instead. I like his cards, but I'm not loving them with the currently available army build options. I'd like see Davos and/or Mel as NCU commanders, though I suppose Davos could be a field commander too. Mel has enough power as a character to have 3 tactics cards vs 1 NCU card. But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if she ended up as a high cost standard NCU. If that's the case, I'd like another 3-pointer too like Estermont here.
That's why I would prefer Melisandre's ability to be something like "Vision in the Flames" that lets you pull cards you want out of your deck, while revealing a card in your opponent's hand. Something like that. But I suppose that type of ability could also be given to Axell Florent who was a zealot. Or alternatively for Mel, I'd be happy with "The Night is dark and full of Terrors" (more likely title tbh) that reduces the ability of the enemy somehow. Some more control abilities would be nice, rather than 100% "wound yourself to do more damage" abilities. Clearly the theme they're going with for Stannis, and it makes the 4 cards in his deck that trigger on destroyed units that much more useful perhaps. I just would like the option to nudge the play-style slightly in other directions.
Of the two Stannis characters shown here, I guess I like Devon's ability better, though we have yet to see what the R'hllor keyword can really do, so I could change my tune. The Baratheons mostly don't mind getting charged, but they do have or will have a couple of units that do like to charge. Having played mostly Starks, it's super frustrating when you declare an important charge and they make it fail. Charges are an important mechanic in the game, so to be denied one you really need is rough. I wish I had had Devon in the last couple games so that I could have passed those charge rolls with flying colors. I would have gladly taken those D3 wounds with a skip in my 6" step.
I'd definitely like to see a couple of the characters as commanders so that I can potentially use Stannis as an attachment instead. I like his cards, but I'm not loving them with the currently available army build options. I'd like see Davos and/or Mel as NCU commanders, though I suppose Davos could be a field commander too. Mel has enough power as a character to have 3 tactics cards vs 1 NCU card. But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if she ended up as a high cost standard NCU. If that's the case, I'd like another 3-pointer too like Estermont here.
Breastplatestretcher
New member
I've seen this exact blurb verbatim on three websites, so I think it's a credible enough leak of the champion of the stags that we are going to get for a while. It could just be a work in progress ability but what do you think of it ends up being true?
Mein Fury
New member
That description of the champions provides us with a little more information than we had before at least. I mean, it still reads like all new-unit propaganda, but the additional speculation it promotes is part of the fun I guess.
If I had to guess (and that's all it is), based on that information, I would expect nearly the same profile stats as the Wardens. So a 7/5 attack and same armor, but with Crit Blow on the charge as mentioned, and maybe a speed of 5 and a morale of 5+ for a total of 8 points. I would be pleasantly surprised by a bump to 3+ attack roll and an armor save bump to 2+, in which case it'd probably be a 9 or even 10 point unit.
If I had to guess (and that's all it is), based on that information, I would expect nearly the same profile stats as the Wardens. So a 7/5 attack and same armor, but with Crit Blow on the charge as mentioned, and maybe a speed of 5 and a morale of 5+ for a total of 8 points. I would be pleasantly surprised by a bump to 3+ attack roll and an armor save bump to 2+, in which case it'd probably be a 9 or even 10 point unit.
Oakwolf
Member
Oh i expect something much more solid than that somehow. In fact, I always saw them as pre-1.5 Flayed Men: 2+ save, 6+ morale, 8/6 dice with critical blow and the same rules as wardens Warhammer to cause weakened. One of the reasons Flayed men were "nerfed" is that they didn't want 2+ cavalry available to everyone...but Baratheons are not neutrals and definitely fit the bill for the toughest nuts around. The original idea was that cavalry with barded horses would be 2+.
The text is actually accurate in most cases except that it was never updated, so things like Flayed men, Blackguards have outdated descriptions from earlier rules.
The Wardens are akin to Blackguards in the same way as i feel Champions will be to Flayed Men, without neutral "tax".
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Mein Fury
New member
I hope you're more correct than I am, because that would be delicious.
King_Kraken
New member
I'll be curious to see what "strong defensive save" means in the context of that text blurb because I don't exactly recall if Flayed Men received the debuff to armor because there was a balance issue with everyone having 2+ cavalry available, or if 2+ saves in general were the issue. Personally, I would prefer that the Baratheon cavalry have 16 wounds as a unit to represent their hardiness and a 3+ save rather than a 2+ save and 12 wounds, but if they were to be a 2+ there wouldn't be too much in the way of a problem there if it was limited to the already lackluster Baratheons. Just picturing how much of a hassle it's going to be for my Targaryens to sweep these guys on the charge if they have a 2+, otherwise they'll just plink off them for the rest of the game!
My bet is that the guesses to these guys being like original Flayed Men are probably pretty accurate. I don't see them being a charge-based unit like other lancer cavalry, since Baratheons look to be an army that gets stuck in and grinds the opponent into dust with Renly/Stannis adding their own flavor on top of that. So I'm betting either 7/5 with a 3+ to hit and Crit Blow+Warhammer or 8/6 with a 3+ to hit and Crit Blow+Warhammer, 2+ save, and 6+ morale (potentially 5+). Movement is likely going to be 5", but it would be curious to see a 4" movement for cav even if it isn't exactly ideal. Points probably ranging 8-10, putting them in line with all other heavy cav.
My bet is that the guesses to these guys being like original Flayed Men are probably pretty accurate. I don't see them being a charge-based unit like other lancer cavalry, since Baratheons look to be an army that gets stuck in and grinds the opponent into dust with Renly/Stannis adding their own flavor on top of that. So I'm betting either 7/5 with a 3+ to hit and Crit Blow+Warhammer or 8/6 with a 3+ to hit and Crit Blow+Warhammer, 2+ save, and 6+ morale (potentially 5+). Movement is likely going to be 5", but it would be curious to see a 4" movement for cav even if it isn't exactly ideal. Points probably ranging 8-10, putting them in line with all other heavy cav.
Oakwolf
Member
They did mention that the 2+ available to all was an issue (unofficial Podcast) and iirc the example mentioned was the Night's Watch. They also stated (official news article) that idea was that neutral faction unit shouldn't be a better choice than in-faction units by default. Not exact quotes, but it was close to that.
https://www.cmon.com/news/visions-in-the-flames-abilities-and-adjustments-in-update-1-5
I think the podcast was nov. 15th
The Flayed Men sadly suffered due to being Neutrals and i really wish they had been their own faction...ah well.
Baratheons are the tough nutters of the factions, so if anyone is getting a 2+ cavalry, it's them. Also, the flavor text, while being just that, really makes me think they initially had in mind that barded cav would get 2+.
https://www.cmon.com/news/visions-in-the-flames-abilities-and-adjustments-in-update-1-5
I think the podcast was nov. 15th
The Flayed Men sadly suffered due to being Neutrals and i really wish they had been their own faction...ah well.
Baratheons are the tough nutters of the factions, so if anyone is getting a 2+ cavalry, it's them. Also, the flavor text, while being just that, really makes me think they initially had in mind that barded cav would get 2+.
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Mein Fury
New member
I fully support that first notion, if they can adhere to it. You shouldn't be encouraged to take Neutral units over those belonging to your own faction. But what does this mean for those who strictly play the Neutral faction? I know I'm repeating myself on this, as the topic seems to come up a lot, but I personally think that we shouldn't be seeing so many Neutral units on the table outside of the Neutral faction itself, especially the Bolton units.
But I also am not a fan of the way that "faction" has been handled in general, and I don't even play it. It's like it's mostly built around Boltons without actually committing to being Boltons. If it were up to me, the Boltons would have their own tactics deck, and their units should be unavailable to other factions. Their loyalties and motives may have shifted, but they are hardly what I would call "Neutral." If any of the more visible houses could be called neutral, it would be the Arryns. Nothing about the Boltons feels neutral; thematically or mechanically. I mean, they have their own visual theme, and a themed play-style too.
The Stormcrows on the other hand, as true mercenaries, seem more like proper "Neutral" units. They're fairly vanilla, but can be modified to suit the faction they're joining thanks to their Adaptive rule. This makes total sense for a unit that's supposed to be supplemental. Even so, I would relabel these units and the other "neutral" characters outside of the Boltons, as "Free Companies" and "undeclared heroes". By adding them to your faction, they basically declare for your house. I would then reduce the army point ceiling for these free companies from a 50% cap to a 40% cap. Makes for nice even point values at the 30, 35, 40, and 50 point game levels.
Oakwolf
Member
I openly hope that they will revisit the Neutral faction once their initial roadmap are done. Seeing Flayed men with dothraki and Khal Drogo makes me cringe...i know we're supposed to take "what ifs" into account...but that one is bonkers.
Bolton should definitely have been their own faction.
Bloody Mummers
Storm Crows
Golden Company
That's the real Mercenaries.
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I suspect if anything gets a 2+ save in this game, it will be super slow, like speed 3 (which if cav is still faster than normal infantry)
Oakwolf
Member
I honestly doubt so. Move 3 would charge really badly. Flayed Men were 2+ for a long while with speed 5, and they were not unbalanced. It just created too many combos that needed to be taken into account with all factions (except Free Folks). The Champions of the Stag will solely be for Baratheons, and that's easier to manage from a design point of view.
My take:
Move 5
Attack 8/6 Critical Blow, Puts weakened on target if it rolls a 1 in defense rolls.
Defense 2+ Morale 6+
10pts
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