Blowin\' Smoke

[WarHAMMER]

Now normally GW just out-and- out directly
interfere in the eBay auctions of myself
and others, so can\'t say I\'m surprised at the latest.

Of course everybody knows they\'ve cut
off retailers in the US to web-sales of their
product, claiming among other things that
thay disagree with the discounting they
have been doing. ( The policy they effected
in the US is completely ILLEGAL in Canada BTW).

So some dude has the nuts to e-mail me
and say my GW eBay prices are too high,
he can buy the same item off GW\'s website
for discount AND pay NO shipping. Now,
hold on I thought in GW\'s response to the
50+ retailers they shafted thay said they
never discount??? LIE

Anyways I lowered my price under what
he claimed the price to be .. NO BIDS of
course, the dude was just blowin\' smoke
out his ass....

Just like the self-aggrandizing propaganda
below...

Games Workshop Response To Retailer Joint Statement
\'Well Thought Out\'
July 17, 2002

A group of retailers representing 52 game stores recently issued a joint statement to Games Workshop protesting its recent wholesale price increase and other problems in doing business with Games Workshop (see, \"Joint Retailer Statement to Games Workshop\"). Mike Jones, Games Workshop\'s U.S. Sales Director, sent us this response:



Let me start by introducing myself, my name is Mike Jones and I\'m the Sales Director for Games Workshop America. I wanted to say a few words about this, as we thought it was well crafted and well thought out, and deserved a response from us. We certainly do encourage retailers to bring issues such as these to us, so we can both work together to resolve them.

There were a couple of items I needed to address, as they seem to have been based on some bad information. It is correct that we did lower our discount; this was done almost a year ago in August. This was done largely to invest in the new Territory Managers program. Right now this program has been operational only in the Northeast, where is has been a huge success. Under this program, key GW staff have been able to visit stores in their area to help out with issues retailers may have, and work with them to help out in any way they can. This program will be spreading through America, with the next area to be the West Coast starting next week actually! We have no plans to change our discount rates in either direction in the foreseeable future, as we do want to grow this program as we\'ve seen how well it has worked so far. We\'ll be talking more about this program soon, as we get the West Coast launched and then move to other areas.

Speaking of discounts, it was noted that our own retail stores/hobby centers regularly offer discounts. To be blunt, this simply isn\'t true. We do special sales for Grand Openings, but really that\'s it. In fact, this year we didn\'t even do an End of Year sale as we had in the past. Both our Mail Order and retail stores adhere to full retail pricing. We\'ve dropped the old Mail Order \"Bargain Basement\" also as it gave the impression that we were discounting. As mentioned in the letter, we do discourage discounting and we mean it. We\'ve been particularly focused on internet discounters, who in our opinion do harm traditional retail outlets.:flame:

 

[No Such Agency]

That\'s really weird

Wow, such a vehement statement from a company stating their prices will be high from now on.

We promise you, the custo-*deletedeletedelete* consumer that from now on, our crap will be 100%expensive. Previously, the consumer could find \"deals\" or \"less expensive items\" originating from us, but we promise this will not occur in the future. In conclusion, fark you all. Thank you.

Somewhere underground, Adam Smith is quietly spinning...

 

[button]

It Makes No Sense

For a company to make such a blatant statement on keeping their prices high on purpose not only shows a disregard for consumer relations, but for future turn-arounds as well. Maybe they will see an increase in profit, but it will be extremely short-lived, especially with the large amount of mini companies out there.
Currently they have one of the most recognizable names in tabletop, and they are trying to exploit that. But by doing what they are doing, they not only drive off loyal people with tight budgets, but newcomers as well. I am the only one of my close friends who does collect for this very reason.
I first started buying in order to paint, then later started playing, but I can just as easily paint minis from another company. Now I am not one to advocate or follow a complete boycott, I still feel that they have some really cool minis, but things like this sure make the alternatives more appealing. *coughSpyglasscough*

 

[WarHAMMER]

GW snuffs out internet retailers...

Good link

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/2619.html

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

This topic has been discussed to death... :|~ :|~

 

[WarHAMMER]

Huh?

I don\'t see how it could have been discussed to death as the customer came to me only
last night. His complaint to me as I stated
above was that my \'retail\' price was too
high, and that he CAN get it from GW mail
order at discount,right now, today.

GW \'claims\' they do not discount when they
do. Now Mr. Darkblade, tell us how much
you get for your GW minis on eBay when
GW mail order discounts you out of business?

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

Originally posted by Warhammer
I don\'t see how it could have been discussed to death as the customer came to me only
last night. His complaint to me as I stated
above was that my \'retail\' price was too
high, and that he CAN get it from GW mail
order at discount,right now, today.

Now don\'t go off on me here, I\'m sorry I was not specific enough, I\'d didn\'t mean your pricing complaint issue, I meant the GW kills Internet Retailers ... this one HAS been done to death!

As example see these links:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=1160

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=1410

It looked like this threat was headed down that path and well It just gets tiring after awhile.

Re: the actaul issue:

The basic fact is that if a customer tells you he can get a better price, thank him and politely tell him to go do so. There are plent of cutomers out there. I\'m a VP of a software company and I can tell you not all customers are good customers, and sometimes, I won\'t sell to them, because they will be troublesome down the road. Know your market (do research), know \"your\" customers and price accordingly. With regards to GW discount, you are right on all points as far as I can see. OK.

Didn\'t intend to offend, and got too focused on one aspect of your post. I should really be in bed. lol

Cheers, Darkblade

 

[freakinacage]

i just don\'t get what they are doing. hoe is putting out a statement saying that their stuff is and always will be expensive a good thing? i used to love the bargain basement. we lost ours in the uk store before the americans (i kept checking up and you guys had some great deals!). they must have made money from that - the deals used to sell out really quickly. damn them:flame:

 

[calabdark]

this is going to be contentious i know, but gw are saying they want their products to sell at the prices they think they should be sold at, the rrp(otherwise why bother setting one), the discount stores were surely creating a second lower tier price band so the rrp was becoming meaningless, gware not saying they are and want to be expensive(i know they are a bit, but not as dramatically as people seem to imply), people now have to trade on an even footing , its not a matter of who can undercut someone else by the most(i dont know whether this is right or wrong)

if peoples feelings against gw are so high, then why not try to push gaming systems by other manufacturers, if everyone in their way tries in whatever small way they can to promote other systems, exhibitions, tournamounts,etc, then maybe with a combined effort the tide may eventually be turned.

who knows whats possible when a number of like minds put their heads together and co operate with each other for the common good)

i have no probs with gw at the mo, they are a vast co. now and their primary business is making money(like many others),but IF and when i feel they are total extracting the urine i will stop buying their products,

 

[Chrispy]

With all my previous expirience with GW and their products, instiutions, and such nothing of their Evilness surprises me. Short of saying right out they use baby seals for manual labor I expect they\'ll do anything for a dollar.. and I suspect they do anyways... lol

 

[Nomis]

It seems that a lot of you miss the point of GW\'s pricing policy - if you check the letter that Mike Jones issued it clearly states their intention is to expand their retail sales operation - I assume that this is a franchise system in the US(?) I would want to be assured that my potential customers could not get the same product I wanted to sell them at a discount from someone else before I signed up - wouldn\'t you?

Even if it not a franchise they could have an interest in keeping a high price as for a lot of people price equates with quality (watch the Stella adds for a good take on that idea)

I do agree that the bargain and shop opening sales seem to have dissapeared - probably a good thing as most of the minis I bought at them are still unpainted!

Anyway there are plenty of other people producing great minis now - who needs GW anymore?

 

[finn17]

This has been done to death but...

GW started off as a bunch of hippies having a laugh and realising that they could make a living out of what they enjoyed. The \'Golden Age\' of Citadel/GW followed. Then the inevitable happened when the \'Men in Suits\' took over as GW outgrew the abilities of it\'s founders to steer it.

This is the path almost every successful firm takes. If it continues, GW production will probably shift to China etc, etc, etc.

IMO the rot set in a few years ago when their catalogue shrank by about an inch in thickness. No longer could you buy all those old models and interesting parts. You had to buy the latest releases and current versions - end of story. That\'s when I lost interest.

Once again, IMO, we will all be able to gloat in a few years when they really hit the rocks. And they will, because they have disenfranchised the people who grew up with them. (Bit like Radio One for you Brits). Their customers now are mainly children. Their old customers, like me, have moved on to the wonderful world of international minis. If Rackham don\'t make a typical Gallic f*ckup they could have GW on the ropes within 5 - 10 years.

I would hate to see GW go under totally because I believe we all owe them a debt Even if you hate GW and have never bought a single thing from them, I would argue that your current dealer wouldn\'t be able to exist in their current form if it wasn\'t for the success of GW/Citadel.

What I hope is that they get hammered economically and the \'suits\' leech away to more profitable pickings allowing GW to rise from the ashes once more as a company run by enthusiasts and not accountants. :flip:

 

[Chrispy]

Originally posted by Nomis
It seems that a lot of you miss the point of GW\'s pricing policy - if you check the letter that Mike Jones issued it clearly states their intention is to expand their retail sales operation

Yes, but as readers of the forum know, this probably means I will not be seeing any official GW stores in my area regardless of how much they want to jack up the pricies and monoploize themselves. I say I\'m going to use any mini I dang well please and (guess what) there\'s no official judge to stop me! MUA HAH haa ha ahaaa!

 

[Braveheart712]

Games Workshop...my opinion.

\"Those of us who fail to learn from the past our doomed to repeat it\" -Author unknown

In my humble opinion, GW is on a course to drive themslves out of business in the quickest way possible, that is through alienating their customers and people that support them. Personally, I love their products, especially the Lord of the Rings line which inspired me to pick up a brush and rekindle this old hobby I enjoyed in my younger days. That in mind, in today\'s business environment having a superior product isn\'t enough. From what I can see, GW has an arrogant attitude regarding its consumers and retailers, one that reflects the belief that whatever they do is just and everyone else will follow them in their lead. I read the posts on this site and many other forums as well as hearing the pervassive opinion of many hobbists that GW sucks. I don\'t agree that GW sucks, again they do produce quality items. As far as their draconian policies such as banning internet sales, discount prohibitation, product unavailability, and sudden and unannounced production stops, I believe that GW is laying the grounds for their own demise. Can any of us convince the corporate suits that run GW of this?? No, they are only interested in a fat bottom line and believe that us lemmings... I mean consumers, will always follow their lead. Give GW some time, in a few years some other consumer friendly manufacturer will step up to the plate and begin whitling away at the GW consumer base, who knows, maybe it already has begun. The corporate suits will try several last ditch efforts to revive their shrinking market share, lastly agreeing that it was nothing of their doing that spelled their demise, it was us consumers that forsakened them much in the way Judas did Christ. Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong...

 

[wyrmling_x]

Why GW is the Devil...

Well here\'s my opinion. I\'ve never included myself in the discussions/arguments/etc. in previous posts (due in large part to laziness) but I thought I might add something.

GW would essentially make money from the discount-giving stores/web stores because more things would be bought than at retail (ie. crap) prices. Driving the prices up AND removing said discounts loses them money - not only will people not buy as much because of a tighter hobby budget, but because of lost interest in raised prices for what is essentially pewter (however lovingly sculpted - I\'ll not pay $16 for ONE Necron Immortal ever again!!!! :flame: ).

The argument of the prices going up being relative to the quality of the product sold to the consumer is not true. Compare models to software, and in particular games. Games, for the past 10 years or so, have been approximately in the range of $65 CAN. Ten years ago, technologically, games sucked. The talent and tech. behind those games of yester years were exponentially less than the games of today.

If this were to follow GW\'s idea, then games would be in the range of $200 to $300! This is NOT the way to do business!

Anyways, that\'s my blab about nothing. And while I continue to purchase GW products, there will come a day (perhaps VERY soon) when I give the ol\' :moon: to GW and say \"Hey, who wants to play some Confrontation?\" And quite honestly, the only thing holding me back is the lack of lizardmen...

 

[kittykat23uk]

I remember a couple of years back when my local GW store had a massive sale! Loads of blisters were sold for 50p each. Boxed necromunda stuff went for a fraction of the cost. Of course that was only a 2-day never to be repeated event.

Seriously though, is it so bad for GW\'s pockets not to be able to sell off a few cheap models now and again?

Regards

Kat

 

[finn17]

I remember them.

It was one of those GW \'Blowout\' sales that got me back into the hobby. I was walking past GamesWorkshop in Portsmouth and I saw all these \'Sale\' signs in the window. I decided to have a quick look out of curiosity and I was hooked!:flip:

I think I spent about 200 pounds which normally wouldn\'t buy you a lot, but I came out wirth boxes and boxes of stuff. I needed to make about three trips to the car:flip:.

Since then I have spend thousands on GW stuff, so it was a good move on their part. It\'s a shame if these sales have ended and the Bargain Basement feature has been \'scrooged away\'.

Oh well. Time will tell if this strategy works for them. Boo! Hiss!:moon:

 

[JimG]

High Prices

Well, here is my $.02.

You will never lose money by raising your prices when you have 100% control of all levels of sales of the product (commonly refered to as \"vertical marketing\").

There is a simple piece of calculus you use to maximize your profit wherein you compare dollars profit versus potential sales losses. The only problem is deciding what percentage of sales actually disappear. Continually raising prices is simply a real world test of sales decrease versus profit increase.

This, of course, does not account for the fickle nature of the market and the nature of the standard customer you represent.

As a business man and investor I am impressed by GW\'s ability to maximize their profit. This speaks to the strength of their product. As a gamer and a father of three, however, I can no longer afford their games which is why they no longer want me as a customer and make it very clear every time I enter one of their stores. I tell them I am buying things for my son (he is 13 months old but they don\'t need to know that) then they act like I exist...

Finally, I sold their product for three years until they opened up a few blocks away and drove me out of business..... Having been through that (and 18 years in a family retail business) I can guarantee they would make more money by selling through secondary resellers only. Why? Because they discounted us 35%. Their own stores track 65% of sales as profit (as oppossed to our 35%). Even at this the stores are essentially acting as \"lost leaders\" to find new markets. What do you suppose the cost of all those stores are versus the potential lost salesby closing them? Imagine doubling their profit from 35% to 65% while cutting the cost of generating those costs to 0.00.

hmmmm...

Sorry for rambling. It is 1:00 AM.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Originally posted by finn17
GW started off as a bunch of hippies having a laugh and realising that they could make a living out of what they enjoyed. The \'Golden Age\' of Citadel/GW followed. Then the inevitable happened when the \'Men in Suits\' took over as GW outgrew the abilities of it\'s founders to steer it.

Their old customers, like me, have moved on to the wonderful world of international minis. If Rackham don\'t make a typical Gallic f*ckup they could have GW on the ropes within 5 - 10 years.

What I hope is that they get hammered economically and the \'suits\' leech away to more profitable pickings allowing GW to rise from the ashes once more as a company run by enthusiasts and not accountants. :flip:

Exactly! I understand that there has to be a certain business like mentality when trying to make a go of things, but the gaming industry seems very fickle to me and sometimes I get the impression that success isn\'t always about profit. The accounts may look staggeringly good, but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that the best service is being offered to the customer. People who buy models and games like to feel that manufacturers are doing something for them and are on a par with being like a distant friend. I remember many years ago when Foundry were based in Guernsey (as Guernsey Foundry) for example. I made a number of orders with them for models and each time there was a little note of thanks personally written by the guy who\'d packed my order and a couple of unreleased models just to let me know what was soon to be in production! Quite incredible, and it was only about 10 years ago (quite a while I guess after all!).

Anyway, when companies are taken over by accountants, that kind of familiarity with the customer seems to disappear, and of course the free hand outs stop. What am I trying to say? I don\'t really know, just that running a company with the bean counters up front doesn\'t always give the best results. If profit is all you\'re into, then get in the bean counters.

Just a point on Rackham. For them to be truly successful, they need to realise that a world exists outside of France from what I\'ve heard!

 

[finn17]

Mutual appreciation society?

Exactly! Our views on this appear to co-incide perfectly. I have bought a lot of stuff recently from Heresy Miniatures and I always get the little note from the guy himself often with a quip and sometimes with an extra mini thrown in. I feel like I know him and, in a sense, do consider him a friend. With Heresy you also know that the guy who packed the miniatures also designed and cast them as well!

I also regularly deal with a couple of dealers on eBay and, because I am a good repeat customer, I get similar friendly treatment and the odd freeby.

As for Rackham, I certainly think you have got a point but I suspect (hope) that the huge wadges of dosh offered by the English speaking market will persuade them eventually, but I suspect it is not going to be without a certain amount of pain.
:bouncy: