Bolton Flayed Men v1.5

[sacrilege83]

As a Bolton player, I am disappointed by this change just as I'm getting my Blackguard. A heavy armoured knight mounted on a barded horse should always be a 2+ defense, I guess that's the Warhammer player in me. It's not like these guys are unbeatable at 2+ def, there are units in existance that can totally take them down. And 10 points was a fair and hefty fee to pay for them as well.

So when do the Night's Watch start getting nerfed because I hear they're meta in games and tournaments?

 

[Oakwolf]

I echo this sentiment entirely. Boltons are my favorite army theme so far.

After the Blackguards's disappointment, this.

They lost 50% of their resilience with that change, it's absolutely huge. Prior to that, you could factor in 72 basic hits required to wipe it out (hence the need to target them with morale, direct wounds, flank and sundering), but now they'll require 36 technically. So the bulwark of House Bolton is effectively gone. Changing Ferocious assault from Spread Fear...okay, i don't really mind even though i liked the fact that they could support the rest of the army by throwing panic around the field. It was a fine unit in the context of "House Bolton" and i wish they had left them alone. I also agree that heavy cavalry with barded horses should be 2+, considering that heavy armored cavaliers (without barding) have 3+. I somehow believe that Baratheons will get that 2+ for the Champions of the Stag.

The neutral faction is sadly the red-headed stepchild of the game i am afraid, as it seems clear from this move that the units are affected by every other faction's balance. This does -not- bode well for the future of it.

I hope that they'll eventually look back into the neutral faction and perhaps produce "house bolton" lists special rules, or "bloody mummers" lists for those who would like to play them. Or i'll work on one myself...and propose it to those i play with.

 

[sacrilege83]

It's a disappointment that I won't be using Boltons in tournaments once v1.5 is released. Unless I can make a list work in friendly games, I feel like this cripples a House Bolton themed player. When v2.0 comes out, CMON should definitely make their own Bolton list reverting Flayed Men back to their original rules for a House Bolton faction only, or neutrals only if they want to solve their problem of balancing with other factions using Flayed Men. I also don't like my cards becoming obsolete. I'm finding they're making too many changes now instead of minimal changes and the game has only been released for what, a year and a half? I can imagine one of my regular opponents who just made the switch to Night's Watch expecting certain units and cards to behave a certain way, then it all gets flipped on him.

 

[Pikeman1]

Obsolete Unit Cards

It'sa disappointment that I won't be using Boltons in tournaments once v1.5 isreleased. Unless I can make a list work in friendly games, I feel like thiscripples a House Bolton themed player. When v2.0 comes out, CMON shoulddefinitely make their own Bolton list reverting Flayed Men back to theiroriginal rules for a House Bolton faction only, or neutrals only if they wantto solve their problem of balancing with other factions using Flayed Men. Ialso don't like my cards becoming obsolete. I'm finding they're making too manychanges now instead of minimal changes and the game has only been released forwhat, a year and a half? I can imagine one of my regular opponents who justmade the switch to Night's Watch expecting certain units and cards to behave acertain way, then it all gets flipped on him.

Yes i agree with the above - Bolton’s are not my main army, but compared to the stark & Lannister the Flayed men are the bedrock unit.
I also agree they are not unbeatable at +2 save.

However my main gripe is the Unit cards - so now my nice cards that I paid good money for are no good, is my only option going to be some download paper printoff, or are we going to be offered replacement cards!!!

Is this game going to suffer the same fate as Warhammer with so many changes and updates to try and fix unbalanced rules and army lists it became unplayable – at least for me it did.

Not impressed

 

[Oakwolf]

Yes i agree with the above - Bolton’s are not my main army, but compared to the stark & Lannister the Flayed men are the bedrock unit.
I also agree they are not unbeatable at +2 save.

However my main gripe is the Unit cards - so now my nice cards that I paid good money for are no good, is my only option going to be some download paper printoff, or are we going to be offered replacement cards!!!

Is this game going to suffer the same fate as Warhammer with so many changes and updates to try and fix unbalanced rules and army lists it became unplayable – at least for me it did.

Not impressed

If they focus too much on the competitive crowd, then yes this is what's going to happen (Malifaux is an example). GW is different as they focus their balance on what they want to sell more of.

I really hope that they release card packs...

 

[Pikeman1]

Yes good comment ...
Me too re card packs .
We enjoy this game a lot, I would hate to have to keep updating constantly...
I do appreciate games need a review..
My worries are there are so many eliments to this game it may be really difficult to keep everything balanced .
We probably will end up sticking to a rules and card version we feel comfortable with.
My main opponent has just received the Baratheon starter set,
I cant see him using his free folk much as they just dont seem up to the job even with the new units and characters.

 

[Elkerlyc]

After having 2 games with the 'new' Flayed men (3+ save for 9 points) I can say I do not mind.
the points drop makes up for it, as does the panic token when you charge which is a massive boon really.

Try them. you might like them better than you think...

 

[Pikeman1]

After having 2 games with the 'new' Flayed men (3+ save for 9 points) I can say I do not mind.
the points drop makes up for it, as does the panic token when you charge which is a massive boon really.

Try them. you might like them better than you think...

Hi yes I'm sure they would still be effective..that's why I said my main gripe is the not being able to use the published unit card .....
These box sets are not inexpensive and to have to do a download printing of new stats is not my preference..
Thanks

 

[Elkerlyc]

Hi yes I'm sure they would still be effective..that's why I said my main gripe is the not being able to use the published unit card .....
These box sets are not inexpensive and to have to do a download printing of new stats is not my preference..
Thanks

Fair. I myself do not care one bit about that.
A balanced, fun game is what I seek (with rank n flank that is)

For this I greatly appreciate CMON's efforts to get things 'right'.

 

[Oakwolf]

Fair. I myself do not care one bit about that.
A balanced, fun game is what I seek (with rank n flank that is)

For this I greatly appreciate CMON's efforts to get things 'right'.

I suppose you're more the target audience then. I care about balance, and i care about theme and coherence just as much. With creativity, theme can always be represented in a balanced manner. I also care about a game's components because we don't want to rely on "technology" to play tabletop games...print-outs look very sloppy most of the time and make for a less eye-entertaining experience. It's also less interesting for future buyers if the unit they purchase already comes with outdated stats.

At least they could make a deal with a print-on-demand company (like wargame vault for Malifaux) so we could get them in a good quality format.


P.S. the change to the flayed men annoys me because it was done for non-neutral reasons. It's other factions who should pay a tax to bring neutral units in their midst, not the other way around.

 

[Pikeman1]

I respect everyone opinion and obviously there will be those that dont mind or care about multiple upgrades and changes.
I myself do however.
Yes ok if something. needs a fix it needs a fix.
My worries are as said this system could end up with numerous..and that would be a negative for me.
As for the card...well lets not forget we already have several that have been updated and now we have our first unit card.
As for my experience.. just a few weeks after receiving my Kickstarter my Hardback rulebook I paid extra for was out of date due to early rule book update ...
That was annoying ..
And yes I know it has other worthy content...
But was still a suprise at such an early update not long after release .....
Play testing anyone?
As for playtest I cannot believe that the free folk were not shown to be way off re equal standing with the other factions.
Only 2 game won by them in my club ..thats 2 playing free folk...with about 15 games played.
One of the wins was secret missions...
So is a different game play.

 

[Valenae]

You should not compare army in only one meta (your club)

In complex game units balanced and tested as whole.
So in certain meta Freefolks may suck in other meta Lannisters.

We dont know Free folks is beaten in your club because player is dont strong or because somthing wrong with faction.

 

[Pikeman1]

You should not compare army in only one meta (your club)

In complex game units balanced and tested as whole.
So in certain meta Freefolks may suck in other meta Lannisters.

We dont know Free folks is beaten in your club because player is dont strong or because somthing wrong with faction.

There are 4 of us in the club who play this game .
2 have free folk as well as one of these players also having Stark and Bolton's faction.
The other 2 players including myself have Stark Lannister and Bolton's.
Regards to the playing of free folk we have alternated players playing each army with same results against free folk.
We even played all game modes but mostly A Game of thrones .
We even tried starter armies only to rule out more powered additions to armies .
The 2 consistent winning players against free folk also played each other .
One with free folk the other with Stark with the same results free folk loose by large margins.
Generally Unit for unit free folk cannot stand against other units .
It should be said the free folk players have all the releases for their new units and characters to play with.
Cheers .

 

[Elkerlyc]

Where I live Free Folk tend to do well enough though.
Just saying.

 

[AlxRaven]

We all know that the different factions play differently from each other to various degrees. The Free Folk, in my opinion, are the ones that play the most different from all of them.

It was mentioned that their units cannot stand against other factions, unit for unit. They are not meant to.

With few exceptions, the Free Folk are a “horde style” faction. The intent is that you have more units than the other person, and gang up on a unit to be effective.

Again, with a few exceptions, Free Folk units should NEVER go 1v1 against another unit.

 

[Pikeman1]

Hi yes understand the intent re the way to use free folk..
We just find their units get destroyed so quickly it does not allow their tactics to develop.
As I said we tried different combinations of free folk armies without any great effect.
I think the new proposed panic rules will help a lot with this army..as they suffer with general high moral stats ..

I like the House Ravenhurst quote BTY ??????