Bureaucracy

[Trevor]

This is my rage against bureaucracy.

I hate it and all the forms it spawns. My hatred has reached such a height that the mere sight of a form has me simulataneously angry like mean machine on 4 and entering a black pit of despairing depression. It quite literally is enough to give me an on the spot mental breakdown. Not only that but I can\'t spell the damn thing properly.

aaarrrgghhh :cussing:

Feel free to vent with tales of the dreaded B word.

 

[Farin]

really ?

ok but just one

Last year my dad was at the employment bureau where they told him that ,since my brother who still lived at home at the time, earned so little during apprenticeship, he quallified for some extra monthly cash from the state ( for my parents to help pay the rent ). All he had to do was \"hand in some paperwork \".
The clerk told him what they needed to see and he returned the next week , only to be told that they need more paperwork. When my dad asked why she didn´t give him the full list the first time , she apolgized and told him to come back with the rest of the papers. One week later he hands in the papers and - guess what - she tells him that he needs to hand in some more papers. Instead of freaking out my dad actually agreed to come back despite the one hour drive with the bus and the waiting time at the bureau.

So one week later, same office , same clerk:
She looks at him:\"Well you finally managed to hand in all the paperwork, but i have to tell you after looking at the numbers a second time , you do not quallify , sorry for the inconvenience\"

:cussing:


there was much more over the years . tranging from burocrats unable to read what ´s right in front of them on the Screen to useless papers, Oh and as a student in school i especially enjoyed the reminder from the german department of defense about my military service i got every year after i turned 18.
When i finally graduated and went to the department to get the mandatory physical and tell them that i would do community service instead ( i really s**k in sports ), they told me that i was exempt from military service due to my glaucoma - of cause there was no way to tell me that before i arrived there :cussing:

 

[Naukhel]

I\'m not touching this one.
It\'d take me weeks to type my rant.

 

[Wendy]

A friend was recently laid off from work until September so he filed for unemployment. The state has a website where the paperwork can be filed. The friend told us that not only is the site incredibly awkward to use and badly designed, but the website is turned off at 7pm every night.

 

[Amazon warrior]

Originally posted by Farin
really ?

ok but just one

Last year my dad was at the employment bureau where they told him that ,since my brother who still lived at home at the time, earned so little during apprenticeship, he quallified for some extra monthly cash from the state ( for my parents to help pay the rent ). All he had to do was \"hand in some paperwork \".
The clerk told him what they needed to see and he returned the next week , only to be told that they need more paperwork. When my dad asked why she didn´t give him the full list the first time , she apolgized and told him to come back with the rest of the papers. One week later he hands in the papers and - guess what - she tells him that he needs to hand in some more papers. Instead of freaking out my dad actually agreed to come back despite the one hour drive with the bus and the waiting time at the bureau.

So one week later, same office , same clerk:
She looks at him:\"Well you finally managed to hand in all the paperwork, but i have to tell you after looking at the numbers a second time , you do not quallify , sorry for the inconvenience\"

:cussing:


there was much more over the years . tranging from burocrats unable to read what ´s right in front of them on the Screen to useless papers, Oh and as a student in school i especially enjoyed the reminder from the german department of defense about my military service i got every year after i turned 18.
When i finally graduated and went to the department to get the mandatory physical and tell them that i would do community service instead ( i really s**k in sports ), they told me that i was exempt from military service due to my glaucoma - of cause there was no way to tell me that before i arrived there :cussing:

Ah, that famous German efficiency!

I\'m with Naukahel, except I\'d be here for years!

 

[Mosch]

My favourite brush with the governmentally sanctioned idiocy known as the beaurocratic system:

Mosch and his father enter room X.
Father: \"Good morning. We would like to hand in some child support forms. Please note forms A, B and C.\"
Weird-ass clerk reads papers, then answers: \"Good morning. Child support forms is room Y, not X, sorry. It\'s just through the door over there.\"
Father and son head towards the door.
Weird-ass clerk: \"STOP! This door is not open to the public! Please use the other door, which leads you on a round trip through the building!\"
Father and son go through the other door, circle the whole damn corridor and come out the end. They enter room Y.
Same weird-ass clerk as in room X who simply walked through the door and took 5 seconds instead of 5 minutes: \"Good morning. What can I do for you?\"

 

[In Chigh P.I.]

SOCIALISM: You have 2 cows. You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRACY: You have 2 cows. The State takes both, shoots one,
milks the other, then throws the milk away.

lol

 

[Sakura]

Ah yes, german bureaucracy.

As I started my apprenticeship I went to the social security office to ask if I would qualify for support to pay rent (I was still living at home, but I was already way over 20 then) , since I didn\'t earn a lot of money but wanted to move out.
They told me that I might indeed qualify for some payment, but that they would only tell me with certaincy and the exact amount, if I bought them a signed! rental agreement.
Even the clerk told me that yes, it was a stupid rule, since most people won\'t fill a contract before even knowing if they would be able to aford the flat.

Needless to say I still live at home. :redface:

 

[waghorn41]

Here\'s how they screwed up my future...

Got made redundant and received a small payout from the company. So, off I go to the unemployment office. Ah, too much I don\'t qualify for state help. Have to live on my payout until it drops below x amount. I explained I wanted to use some of the money to do some IT courses, 3 of 1 day duration, to help get me back into work.

\'No, can\'t do that. Have to be available every day for work.\'

WTF !
Ok, 6 months later, money nearly all gone go back to office. Now I qualify. Asked what steps I had taken to get employment. Well, I had planned to improve my chances by these courses but have had to just do the usual round of applications/interviews.

\'What courses?\'

The ones you said I couldn\'t spend my money on because for 3 odd days I wouldn\'t be available to start work.\'

\'You come here once a fortnight to sign on, what you do in between about looking for work is up to you. Why don\'t you do the courses now?\'

Because you\'ve made me spend all my money just living...

Oh then they wanted a breakdown of my spending for the last six months. I bought an old car to enable me to get around looking for work and hopefully get to work. What happend? Said I spent unacceptable amount on a NEW car. Told them if they could get a new car for that price tell me where; also I got a discount because I was ex-trade and knew the garage. Then they said \'new\' could be termed as replacement and what was wrong with my other car - I hadn\'t owned one for 7 years! That was the start of 10 years of crap.

That\'s enough, for now anyway.

 

[Amazon warrior]

*hugs waghorn* How awful! The Jobcentre is a horrendous place staffed by total tossers, in the main.

 

[Godlikebuthumble]

And another one from Germany:

Nevermind that I had the same chain of events as Farin, only at my Uni\'s Bafög centre (kind of student support/loan thingamabob).

In early 2001, when I was about to start a job at a GW store: Back then, I still had a Bosnian citizenship, not a German one. So, I mail my application, social security, passport copy, etc. to human resources.
Call from human resources arrives in the store:
HR: \"Hi, well, I see here you\'re not a German citizen. That means I\'ll be needing a work permit from you, you can get that from city hall.\"
Me: \"Yeah, see, I also sent you a copy of my passport with the part saying I\'ve an unlimited stay in Germany (kind of like permanent green card). Which includes not needing a work permit. I thought that might be an issue, so I included that.\"
HR: \"Oh, right. In that case, you\'ll need to fax me a form that states you don\'t need a work permit.\"
Me: \"???\"

Turns out, I needed to get that form... from city hall, namely the exact same office where I\'d have had to go for a work permit. So, same hassle, same wait, same friggin room... only a different piece of paper. One of the reasons I finally cracked and switched to German citizenship. Oh, and don\'t even get me started on that one... ossessed:

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by waghorn41
Here\'s how they screwed up my future...

Got made redundant and received a small payout from the company. So, off I go to the unemployment office. Ah, too much I don\'t qualify for state help. Have to live on my payout until it drops below x amount. I explained I wanted to use some of the money to do some IT courses, 3 of 1 day duration, to help get me back into work.

\'No, can\'t do that. Have to be available every day for work.\'

That\'s a lot of the problem with government assistance right there: it\'s cookie-cutter and it\'s short-sighted. Now I know there aren\'t enough civil servants on earth to give each job-seeker an individual case worker who is familiar with their specific situation... but jeez, that\'s just idiotic.

It\'s like the idea that to apply for social assistance you must be destitute - no assets at all. So once you\'ve burned through your remaining assets, you are just another poor person living paycheck to paycheck. It\'s hard getting off welfare in THAT situation, so you may very well cost the system MORE to maintain you for longer.

 

[slah]

Originally posted by waghorn41
Here\'s how they screwed up my future...

Got made redundant and received a small payout from the company. So, off I go to the unemployment office. Ah, too much I don\'t qualify for state help. Have to live on my payout until it drops below x amount. I explained I wanted to use some of the money to do some IT courses, 3 of 1 day duration, to help get me back into work.

\'No, can\'t do that. Have to be available every day for work.\'

WTF !
Ok, 6 months later, money nearly all gone go back to office. Now I qualify. Asked what steps I had taken to get employment. Well, I had planned to improve my chances by these courses but have had to just do the usual round of applications/interviews.

\'What courses?\'

The ones you said I couldn\'t spend my money on because for 3 odd days I wouldn\'t be available to start work.\'

\'You come here once a fortnight to sign on, what you do in between about looking for work is up to you. Why don\'t you do the courses now?\'

Because you\'ve made me spend all my money just living...

Oh then they wanted a breakdown of my spending for the last six months. I bought an old car to enable me to get around looking for work and hopefully get to work. What happend? Said I spent unacceptable amount on a NEW car. Told them if they could get a new car for that price tell me where; also I got a discount because I was ex-trade and knew the garage. Then they said \'new\' could be termed as replacement and what was wrong with my other car - I hadn\'t owned one for 7 years! That was the start of 10 years of crap.

That\'s enough, for now anyway.

Well I have to say I think that this all kinda seems fair....

1: Why should you be on state help if you have the means of supporting yourself?
2: Why should you receive wellfare for being unemployed if you´re not available for work?
3: Why should the state accept that when you have money you spend it on things you didnt even have when you were employed?

I make a living sitting in a complaint board where we deal with these very cases (and may be biased because of that), and I have to say that if you have enough money to live for 6 months, while buying a new car (new in the meaning that you didn´t have one before), and not being able to work because you´re ecucating yourself I would be seriously pissed off if you were able to receive that kind of financial help from the state.

I´m not denying there is a bit of red tape, but that can´t be avoided in any system. It´s needed to ensure that every case gets treated the same way, so that noone gets special treatment, and so that noone gets a bad treatment - everybody gets the same.

 

[Gearhead]

Here\'s one my brother told me last month:

He\'s rennovating his house, and is installing some ceiling fans. Now, he\'s talking to some beurocrat about getting the necessary permits. Bureaucrat says something about Energy Conservation laws, and my brother says \"oh, that\'s fine, I\'m putting compact fluourescent bulbs in everything.\"

Bureaucrat says that he can\'t use regular fixtures because \"you can put regular incandescents in them.\"

\"But I\'m not going to. I\'m putting in CFs everywhere.\"

\"Doesn\'t matter. If you can put incandescents in it, you can\'t install it.\"

Bureaucrat goes on to explain that, according to some idiotic law made by people who cannot successfully add 2 and 2 together, you have to put everything on a dimmer...the idea being, apparently, that you keep the lights dim and thereby conserve electricity.

\"But,\" says my brother, \"you can\'t use CFs on a dimmer circuit.\"

\"No,\" says bureaucrat, \"you have to use incandescents.\"

And people wonder why California is such a mess right now. Our lawmakers can\'t even see what moronic reasoning they\'re using. Apparently, to conserve power, you can\'t install a new on/off fixture because you might put in incandescent bulbs and waste electricity, so instead you have to use dimmers which require incandescents, and they just trust you to keep the lights down.

As if it took more effort to change all your bulbs from CFs than it does to, I don\'t know...TURN THE LIGHTS ALL THE WAY UP?!?!! :cussing:

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Sakura
Ah yes, german bureaucracy.

As I started my apprenticeship I went to the social security office to ask if I would qualify for support to pay rent (I was still living at home, but I was already way over 20 then) , since I didn\'t earn a lot of money but wanted to move out.
They told me that I might indeed qualify for some payment, but that they would only tell me with certaincy and the exact amount, if I bought them a signed! rental agreement.
Even the clerk told me that yes, it was a stupid rule, since most people won\'t fill a contract before even knowing if they would be able to aford the flat.

Needless to say I still live at home. :redface:

The reason for this is (most likely) that if they tell you with certainty what to expect to receive they can´t change their mind later on if there are any clauses in the rental agreement that means they would have to revise their initial statement - in danish it´s called a \"binding advance\", and is very very sledom used because when you give it you most often don´t have all the facts, and might end up having to pay more to the citizen than what is legal.

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Farin
really ?

ok but just one

Last year my dad was at the employment bureau where they told him that ,since my brother who still lived at home at the time, earned so little during apprenticeship, he quallified for some extra monthly cash from the state ( for my parents to help pay the rent ). All he had to do was \"hand in some paperwork \".
The clerk told him what they needed to see and he returned the next week , only to be told that they need more paperwork. When my dad asked why she didn´t give him the full list the first time , she apolgized and told him to come back with the rest of the papers. One week later he hands in the papers and - guess what - she tells him that he needs to hand in some more papers. Instead of freaking out my dad actually agreed to come back despite the one hour drive with the bus and the waiting time at the bureau.

So one week later, same office , same clerk:
She looks at him:\"Well you finally managed to hand in all the paperwork, but i have to tell you after looking at the numbers a second time , you do not quallify , sorry for the inconvenience\"

This isn´t really bureocracy, but instead inept casehandling - there is no excuse for having to come back 3 times because they don´t give you all the forms.

there was much more over the years . tranging from burocrats unable to read what ´s right in front of them on the Screen to useless papers, Oh and as a student in school i especially enjoyed the reminder from the german department of defense about my military service i got every year after i turned 18.
When i finally graduated and went to the department to get the mandatory physical and tell them that i would do community service instead ( i really s**k in sports ), they told me that i was exempt from military service due to my glaucoma - of cause there was no way to tell me that before i arrived there :cussing:

Did you ask beforehand?

- You can´t expect the state to hold your hand every little step of the way. If you have doubts, questions or a need for more information, then ask. Don´t expect the state to be telepathic and magically sort out all your problems before they arise.

 

[Dragonsreach]

How about geting the SAME Ethnic Monitoring form to complete EVERY year since I started working in this council. Issued by the very same people (H.R.) to whom I sent in my original one when I started.
As if things are gonna change.

Last couple I\'ve ticked Other in each category and made sure that in the Race category I\'ve written HUMAN BEING as the alternate choice.

 

[Sakura]

Originally posted by slah
The reason for this is (most likely) that if they tell you with certainty what to expect to receive they can´t change their mind later on if there are any clauses in the rental agreement that means they would have to revise their initial statement - in danish it´s called a \"binding advance\", and is very very sledom used because when you give it you most often don´t have all the facts, and might end up having to pay more to the citizen than what is legal.

Hm, I don\'t understand what the state has to do with causes in my contract. I\'m still the one fulfilling the contract, they just give me some additional money to do it...

Before they reformed the whole state support thing it was quite easy:
You would hand them papers in on how much you earn, how much you owned, and how much your parents earn if you where under a certain age, and they would tell that you qualify for support to your rent up to some amount.
So they had all the papers and you just had to hand in the contract and after a month or 2 they\'d approve the payments.
Ok, it didn\'t always work flawlessly, but it was a lot better then not getting any concrete numbers at all.

 

[waghorn41]

Originally posted by slah
Well I have to say I think that this all kinda seems fair....

1: Why should you be on state help if you have the means of supporting yourself?
2: Why should you receive wellfare for being unemployed if you´re not available for work?
3: Why should the state accept that when you have money you spend it on things you didnt even have when you were employed?

I make a living sitting in a complaint board where we deal with these very cases (and may be biased because of that), and I have to say that if you have enough money to live for 6 months, while buying a new car (new in the meaning that you didn´t have one before), and not being able to work because you´re ecucating yourself I would be seriously pissed off if you were able to receive that kind of financial help from the state.

I´m not denying there is a bit of red tape, but that can´t be avoided in any system. It´s needed to ensure that every case gets treated the same way, so that noone gets special treatment, and so that noone gets a bad treatment - everybody gets the same.

1. I had to sign on for future purposes, believe me I didn\'t want to. Not after handouts.
2. They said effectively that if I signed on I had to be available EVERY day, notwithstanding that in the process of applying for jobs, waiting for interviews I would have days when I was \'free\' and could have done the courses. They were not interested in helping me find a job after all.
3. I needed a car to be able to get to interviews and possibly commute to work as public transport was/is so dire. Consider trying to get to an interview or a job maybe 50 miles away - could you walk/cycle it every day and be fit to do a days work?

You\'d be pissed off? How do you think I felt at the state telling me I had to sign on but couldn\'t then use my resources to get back into work? That\'s not red tape it\'s a red noose.

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Sakura

Originally posted by slah
The reason for this is (most likely) that if they tell you with certainty what to expect to receive they can´t change their mind later on if there are any clauses in the rental agreement that means they would have to revise their initial statement - in danish it´s called a \"binding advance\", and is very very sledom used because when you give it you most often don´t have all the facts, and might end up having to pay more to the citizen than what is legal.

Hm, I don\'t understand what the state has to do with causes in my contract. I\'m still the one fulfilling the contract, they just give me some additional money to do it...

Before they reformed the whole state support thing it was quite easy:
You would hand them papers in on how much you earn, how much you owned, and how much your parents earn if you where under a certain age, and they would tell that you qualify for support to your rent up to some amount.
So they had all the papers and you just had to hand in the contract and after a month or 2 they\'d approve the payments.
Ok, it didn\'t always work flawlessly, but it was a lot better then not getting any concrete numbers at all.

Legally it´s exactly the same they did in your case.

they told you, that under a given set of circumstances you will be able to receive a certain amount in support, but because they don´t have a signed contract they can´t verify that the circumstances are met, and because of that they can´t promise you a certain amount.

Without documented proof of your actual financial commitments the state can´t promise you anything. The state can only inform you of the rules, and tell you that if you fulfill condition A and B you are entitled to amount C, but before you prove that you in fact DO fulfill condition A and B it can´t be decided whether or not you are entitled to condition C.

However a thing to remember is that rules like these most often are not subjected to estimates. The state can´t say \"well you fulfill condition A and B, but because you have red hair you won´t get amount C anyway\". So once you´re fully informed about the rules (and are sure you know them) you should be able to go out and get an apartment and afterwards get the approval from the state without any problems.

One thing you could do is to get a copy of the lease and show it to the person who makes the decision, and ask whether or not it would fulfill condition A and B (or whatever conditions need fulfilling).

- Please bear in mind my knowledge of this is only from a danish perspective, but the logic/ruleset does seem to be somewhat the same as what you have described.