Controversial topic - You have been warned

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by dauber22
Having been brought up a pre-Ecumenical Council Catholic, I can tell you that masturbation was definitely considered a sin. The wasting of one\'s seed was a definite no-no. Also known as the sin of Onan or Onanism. Personally, having read the Biblical account, I always thought it was a serious misinterpretation, but that\'s a point for another discussion.

Well yeah, Onan\'s sin was in not respecting his brother\'s wishes (by impregnating his wife as was the custom). He wasn\'t masturbating, he was having sex with an actual woman!

As another aside: If we have no right to dictate to a woman how her reproductive system is used, why is prostitution a crime ???

I dunno, why is it? It\'s not an optimal career choice, and nobody should be forcing her to do it, but I don\'t see why a woman (or man) should not be allowed to receive money or gifts in return for sexual favours. It\'s an unreasonable restriction on personal liberty. They\'d better make sure and declare the income on their taxes, of course!

(it seems that important members of the US government don\'t really have a problem with it, either...)

And again: Why in this state is it illegal to pierce a minor\'s ears without parental permission because it is classified as an invasive medical procedure, but it\'s illegal to insist that a minor get parental permission to have an abortion? Wouldn\'t that be considered an invasive medical procedure as well ??? Vince, I await your evisceration of my question

Will you take mine? There are many situations where a teenage girl\'s parents will do terrible things to her in response to being told that she\'s not only pregnant, but is seeking an abortion. It\'s simply not the same as pierced ears, I doubt many people\'s parents ever threw them out of the house or beat them senseless for getting their ears pierced. At least not recently.

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

Some interesting points here.

There has been a lot of discussion of when / at what stage \"a life\" begins, and that at after this stage you cannot abort because it\'s like killing. For some people this stage is conception and for others it\'s later.

Where this \"stage\" is isn\'t easy to decide, arguably it\'s subjective and arbitrary. A foetus is a potential human with a life ahead, but then sperm has potential for life too, at what point do you draw the line?

Whether the baby could survive outside the womb doesn\'t seem too be a 100% solid factor either when you look at it. We kill healthy living young animals as a society so why should whether something can survive influence us? Well it\'s a \"human\" or a \"potential human\" you say and humans are more important that animals. Right but that brings us back to the first point which is at what point does a human become a human? At conception? Or is it still a collection of cells at this stage? Later? How much later? I don\'t know. It\'s all subjective and arbitrary.

I can\'t possibly decide. Those that are better placed to make this decision should be making it: pregnant women and doctors. I don\'t see how a judge or jury or whatever is going to have a better \"insight\" than doctors and pregnant women.

I was reading something written by a GP in the UK who said \"Statistically, the mortality rate of a termination in early pregnancy is lower than the mortality rate of having a baby.\" Therefore it\'s safer for the mother to have an abortion than give birth, and brings up the point that we are not talking about one life here, there are two and the woman should therefore I believe have power over her own body.

As for the legislation issue, we let people die through a lack of clean water (and all sorts of other preventable things) and we don\'t make legislation to prevent that. But people think we need tighter legislation on abortion. This appears to be perplexing to me.

 

[funnymouth]

its not all arbitrary. techically a fetilized egg is not viable (read: capable of producing a child) until it implants on the uterine wall. untill that point it has no chance of becoming a embryo, or a child.

 

[vincegamer]

But that can be said of many stages.
Even if it implants in the uterine wall it is not guaranteed (or even likely) to become a human being.
Viable means capable of surviving unattached to the mother.

 

[funnymouth]

indeed, hence my arguement for autonomy as the point of no return. i was merely pointing out that there are significant , logial stages that could be used for legeslating abortion (obveously implantation is not a useful one).

 

[farseerlum]

i\'m very aware that my strange australian dialect doesn\'t translate well to print, and even less so with foreign people reading it. but i\'m gunna keep on trying.

@greenone. you and everyone else reading this is aware that my last post was quite rediculous and in direct responce to your posts. thats allowed. it does not mean i was attacking you. hostility towards certain ideals is guaranteed in this topic. either you can defend your point or you can abandon it, feeling sorry for it\'s popularity isn\'t reccomended.


back to the now really spread out subject.
it\'s getting to be clear to everyone now, how far reaching this topic goes it doesn\'t stop at the mother and the baby.

it affects the fathers, and if you think fathers can\'t have a very strong bond with their unborn children then you need to have some kids.

it affects born siblings who are going to be upset simply because their parents are. issues this large can ruin families.

it affacts unborn siblings. abortion and escpescially multiple abortion can leave the women sterile. infertility can break up families also.

it affects health workers. my aunt was working in a familiy planning clinic for a while. she initiall was happy to be comforting and being able to help these young women. but after she was there long enough to start seeing the same women there repeatedly she became disgusted by the way the system works and was unable to give them sympathy. not evidence i agree but you shouldn\'t need evidence on this.

it affect religous ideals (everyone who believes that life is more than biology) when is a soul created? if we kill an uborn child does it\'s karma count?

it affects taxpayers.

it affects everyone. you can\'t leave these sorts of desciions in the hands on any one biased minority group. it has to be legislated by people with societes interest in mind. not just that of the distraught mother.

PS if i\'m getting a fine for masturbating then the missus is getting one each month too.

 

[Aidan K]

Originally posted by farseerlum

PS if i\'m getting a fine for masturbating then the missus is getting one each month too.

I wouldnt beleive her if she said she only masturbates once a month lol

 

[farseerlum]

um dude the joke was she wastes an egg each month.

she claims to have never masterbated though if you want to know.

 

[Aidan K]

It was a joke too... based on a false \"misinterpretation\" of why she only had one fine and your implication that you would be fined for your own \"activities\". Also a joke on the fact that people tend to lie about that particular activity.

 

[farseerlum]

i guess it would have been funnier if she managed to use an egg each time she masterbated.

this thread in now going for the record on using the word masterbation.




masterbate!

 

[treide]

First off, I want to extend an apology for not being completely honest with the other forum members here. The reason I started this thread and have been rabidly posting is that my wife and I have just gone through this ordeal.

We found out we were pregnant in January, and were delighted as we had been trying for over a year and were about to consider IVF. All seemed well at first with the initial ultrasounds, but it was recommended we do the \"First Trimester Screen\" at the 11th week, since my wife is older and at higher risk for pregnancy complications. We found out late in the 12th week that the nuchal translucency test was abnormal, so an amniocentesis was then recommended. We could not get in to see a specialist for the amniocentesis until late in the 13th week, and then the amniocentesis could not be done because there was not enough amniotic fluid to safely do the procedure without risk of injuring the fetus. The second amniocentesis was done in the 14th week successfully, and we received preliminary results that Friday that were abnormal - Trisomy 13 (Patau syndrome), which is much worse than Trisomy 21 (Down\'s syndrome). My wife and I had already decided that we wanted to terminate the pregnancy if there was a chromosomal abnormality, so we scheduled the abortion the following Friday. We received confirmation of the genetic abnormality in the 15th week, but when we went for the procedure that Friday, the ultrasound showed that the fetus\'s head was larger than it should be, approximately the size of a 20 week gestation (possibly due to early hydrocephalus). The planned 2-day staged procedure would not allow adequate dilation of the cervix, so we had to reschedule the following week (16th) for a 3 day procedure to allow more dilation. My wife just completed the procedure this morning.

The reason I am explaining all these details is that the point has been brought up several times in the thread that abortions should not be done past the first trimester. While I agree that would be ideal, the reality for us was that the earliest we could do the procedure after waiting for all the confirmations of the abnormal results and allowing for the safest possible procedure was 16 weeks.

More importantly, the doctor told us that if we had walked into the clinic with the same scenario 5 weeks from now after this Supreme Court ruling goes into effect, they would not have been able to help us. The procedure my wife underwent was the \"partial birth\" abortion, because the other procedure would have resulted in much higher risk of her becoming infertile. So regardless of how uncommonly this procedure has to be used, the point is that it is needed in some situations.

I want to thank everyone who has weighed in on this divisive topic, because it actually has been very helpful for me to talk about these issues and try to understand differing opinions. If there had been some way to fix the genetic problem, believe me, we would have done so. Hopefully we will be able to move on and try to start a family in the future.

Sincerely,

treide

 

[vincegamer]

You have my deepest sympathies, both for having to make such a decision, and for having worked so hard for a child only to have this problem. My wife and I have been trying to conceive for a while now and I dread this sort of thing.

If it is any consolation, science will adapt to the law. SCOTUS left open the possibility of terminating the fetus inside the womb prior to the partial extraction. I\'m not a doctor so don\'t know what methods are available, but you would not have been without options 5 weeks later.

 

[dauber22]

Treide - I echo Vince\'s feelings. You and your wife have my deepest sympathies. I know how difficult and gut-wrenching this must have been for you both.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

I hope you have success in the future.

 

[treide]

@Vince, Dauber22 and Dr. EM - thank you all, much appreciated. Vince, best of luck to you and your wife with starting a family.

 

[No Such Agency]

I\'m very sorry to hear about that, treide, you both have my best wishes. It was an interesting topic to raise here, since most discussions of the topic elsewhere seem to degenerate into name-calling, which we are not supposed to do here

 

[treide]

Thanks, NSA. Certainly not a pleasant topic to discuss, but our experience makes it clear to me that these discussions MUST take place. At the very least I think it softens one\'s view towards others. There were protesters standing outside the facility today, and a few days ago I might have confronted them. Now I simply accept that they feel strongly about their cause, and move on. Save the debate for another day.

 

[matty1001]

I like the discussions on here, I may not post in them all, but they broaden my understanding of people and views.

Here\'s hoping for the best for you and your missus triede.

 

[treide]

@matty1001 - Thanks, we appreciate it.

 

[Legacy Account]

Just read through the entire thread - an excellent choice of topic and extremely interesting.

My partner and I discussed exactly the same things as yourself and your own partner only a few weeks ago Treide. We came to the same conclusions, although obviously not in the same circumstances. It\'s an incredibly emotive subject and personally I can respect the feelings of those on either side.

There is however, a need for legislation in any country, and it needs to be thorough and clearly stated or you end up with the sort of problems that are occuring in Ireland at the moment:

Pregnant Irish girl report...

And a better link to the same story...

Hope you get happier times in the near future Treide.