Crystal brush

AndyG

Active member
I agree about the bases beeing integral to the mini, as 10 ball said yesterday faces and bases are the two things people look at first!

I despite the evidence to the contrary probably spent at least the same amount of time building and painting and fluffing up the base as painting the figure for my entry to salute .

I would be mortified if people thought I had just slapped a bit of paint on a mini and then entered it for a big comp, you've got to put the effort in I.e. even if you aren't that good at least think big and give it a go! That way it shows you've tried your hardest so do the big base full o skulls:skeleton::laugh: even if it only gets a 6 you can still hold your head up high with pride!
 

cyberakuma

New member
Just had a quick flick through and got the same problem as others with the shuffling biasepics or not aside can't say i care if there are people of a lower standard up or not do you think you are special and think you should have work done for you? Vote how you see fit personally there is one that strikes me as a concern is the angry bear and druid from sodapop it is easy to dismiss it as a poor paint job compared to to some pieces in there that have loads more detail to work with and give that wow factor but it is a completely different art style from the regular minis we see since it is in a chibi anime/manga style it is like asking for a lot of people to compare an action figure to michaelangelo's david which is unfair to say the least as most will turn round and pick the classic stly everytime even though the paintjob on this piece is meticulous it is just of a different style to the norm being as it is the only one this year there isn't much that can be done about it but with sodapop as a sponsor to maybe in the future there should be a seperate category since there is as much of a difference if not more than there is between historical sci-fi and fantasy
 

Zarovich

New member
On the argument in basing, there should be three things considered.

First, there are the basing rules. Plinths don't count, but also: I was also told at the convention by CMoN staff that basing will not be judged.

i) Single “human” sized figure, on a base no larger than 50mm wide / tall (2"x 2")
ii) Vehicle or large monster, on a base no larger than twice the horizontal dimensions of the model.
iii) Squad of “human” sized models, minimum of 3 models, maximum of 10 models, mounted separately on bases no larger than 50mm wide / tall or on a single display base no larger than the combined total of all base allowances in terms of width, but restricted to 50mm tall (i.e. 10 models would be allowed on a 50mm x 500mm base)

50 millimeters is 5 centimeters or 2 inches. So, there is little point to trying to base a large squad, and I would not be surprised if several single minis were disqualified because their base was too big. (I would also be surprised, judging by the way some models were given so many extra photos, if the basing rules were overlooked.)

Second, this contest was held at a war gaming convention. Someone mentioned that they didn't think GW or Forge World should be considered at all for entry, as they have their own contests. Well, for someone who plays GW games, they are required to use (and paint) GW miniatures, which have to be BASED on a certain size base per game rules.

Third, consider what the purpose of the models to begin with. Some models are only good for putting on a shelf to collect dust. But miniatures of the scale dictated by the contest rules are often dictated by scales that can be used in games. Why? Because miniatures are an evolution of toy soldiers! So, if a wargamer has put in a ton of work, doing their best in painting a miniature, should they be held back by basing? The point of - especially in the historical and sci-fi categories - is to create a miniature that you can play with. You can't play with a miniature standing on an outhouse, or whatever.

Now, I understand, from looking at all of the stuff in the case, that there are two camps in painting philosophy at odds here. What a contestant perceives by reading the rules verbatum will vary wildly by the background they came from. This competition was open to anyone who paid for a badge, 95% of whom are wargamers. Who knows how many have heard of CMoN before this weekend? They are basing their skills on what they see other people fielding on the table, not on pastel colored, fully blended naked fairies. The aforementioned fairies qualities would be lost among the ranks of soldiers on the table - which is why harsher, harder lines and bright/contrasting colors are often used to define models on the tabletop. The wargamer-painter considers how good something will look from 4 ft. away as well as how good it looks good at 6" in a display. Does a painter who's soul purpose is painting a miniature perfectly think about how good something looks at 4 feet away, or do they think about how it would look in a jewelers case?

Now, I'm not going to argue the quality of what was entered into the contest. Certainly that varied by painter. But I'm willing to bet that no matter how good or bad a painter is, or what preconceived notions they had by entering into the contest, that they all deserve a fair shake. Online voters have their own ideas about what makes a mini great or not. Someone who doesn't paint at all, but likes naked people, might vote according to who painted skin the best. A history/sci-fi buff wonders how it best represents the real or fictional unit, and that is more important than if the model is cross-eyed.

All of the above being said:

1. Bases should not be considered unless the function of the model is first considered.
2. If the CMoN crowd thinks that game pieces will be frowned upon, then they should create categories for free style and for game pieces, and describe in the rules the difference.
3. Voters and Judges should take into account the purpose of a model before judging it.
4. If CMoN doesn't consider game pieces legitimate entries, they should say so. A highly, but subtly, detailed model is put on a tabletop, it might just look dirty, rather than detailed. Likewise, a dirty tank often looks like crap up close, because it is made to look like it's covered in said crap.

And I say again, for those who think people entered into the competition whatever they found in their toy box, you've dishonored the effort that most everyone put into their models. If someone puts hours into a model or models, they should be given equal treatment in voting for:
1. the effort they put in, versus the 25 seconds it takes to snap a picture, and to honor their hard work.
and
2. the understanding that one man's pleasure is another's cause for tears. Blurred or non-details shots for some and not others is seriously insulting to the people who tried.
3. Are we supporting the world of miniature gaming and painting? Or are we out to prove our superiority by how high we can push our nose up? How many people who entered this contest walked away feeling cheated or like a loser because their models weren't given the same attention as other models? Some may see it as a challenge, but many will walk away disheartened - and that is a disservice to the future health of the hobby.

 

ischa

New member
remember however. some of the people who entered didnt put hours into their models. not being able to even do the bases on your models show that your attitude towards the painting competition is "meh, i´ll give it a try", i dont know about you guys, but i´m annoyed by this. i dont have a problem at al with the models of lower quality, if the painter has given his/hers full attention to it. even if the model itself is the focus of the competition, bases are a part of the mini, and a mini without a painted base is UNFINISHED. wether the base is fantastic and for display or wether it is a simple gaming base is something else.

secondly, this is after all a painting competition, regular gamers wont have the same chances as professional painters that previously won competitions. that said, these chances shouldnt be affected by photography. the photography should, however, not hide anything, if a mini has certain angles or details that are interesting and might affect the voting, these should be showed in the photographs, even if it´s a lower quality mini. wether the mini is for gaming or display shouldnt matter, quality is quality. and a painting competition is obviously about painting.
 

althai

Member
On the argument in basing, there should be three things considered.

First, there are the basing rules. Plinths don't count, but also: I was also told at the convention by CMoN staff that basing will not be judged.
They should not have told you that, as it's obviously false. I would be surprised if the convention judges don't take basing into account. The rules say that plinths aren't judged, but say nothing about basing, which presumably plays a role in the judging. But even if they ignore basing, they have no control at all over how the internet voters choose to vote, and I guarantee you that many of the internet voters do take basing into account. Personally I base my vote on the overall impression, and basing plays a big part in that. As you argue yourself, internet voters can vote based on whatever criteria they want.

So, if a wargamer has put in a ton of work, doing their best in painting a miniature, should they be held back by basing? The point of - especially in the historical and sci-fi categories - is to create a miniature that you can play with. You can't play with a miniature standing on an outhouse, or whatever.
The point of all of the categories is to paint the best—or perhaps coolest—mini you can. This is, after all, a painting competition. Furthermore, it explicitly lacks rules saying that models must be legally based for gaming, which many other competitions (e.g. those run by Games Workshop and Privateer Press) have. That said, there are lots of interesting and creative things you can do even if you limit yourself to the inside of a 25mm diameter circle. I've entered some of PP's painting competitions, and the minis that did well generally did something cool with the PP-mandated gaming base. Alternatively, one common tactic in Golden Demon competitions is to design an elaborate socket for the gaming base, and you could do the same thing here if you wanted to paint a gaming-legal mini with an elaborate base. But you shouldn't expect the rules to be written so that people who do something cool with the base can't get any credit for it. And please don't insult display-shelf minis; there's nothing wrong with enjoying minis as display pieces rather than gaming pieces, if that's your cup of tea.

The aforementioned fairies qualities would be lost among the ranks of soldiers on the table - which is why harsher, harder lines and bright/contrasting colors are often used to define models on the tabletop. The wargamer-painter considers how good something will look from 4 ft. away as well as how good it looks good at 6" in a display. Does a painter who's soul purpose is painting a miniature perfectly think about how good something looks at 4 feet away, or do they think about how it would look in a jewelers case?
Actually, yes. One style in mini painting aims at maximizing contrast way beyond what is realistic, just as you say, because that's what looks best on a 30mm figure from four feet away. Mathieu Fontaine's Ar-Fienel is a good example of that style in this year's competition. All of the top models look way better than the average gaming miniature both in a case and on a gaming table, and some are specifically painted in a style aimed at painting minis which look amazing on the table.

Now, I'm not going to argue the quality of what was entered into the contest. Certainly that varied by painter. But I'm willing to bet that no matter how good or bad a painter is, or what preconceived notions they had by entering into the contest, that they all deserve a fair shake.
...which they all got. The judges looked at every figure, and evaluated it based on its merits. The ones which only got one photograph weren't going to do well anyways, because of poor judge scores, even if they got high online scores (which is doubtful). If you think some minis didn't get a fair shake, what do you think was the cause of the bias, if not the quality of the miniature? Or are you just complaining that the judges' criteria didn't match your own?

1. Bases should not be considered unless the function of the model is first considered.
2. If the CMoN crowd thinks that game pieces will be frowned upon, then they should create categories for free style and for game pieces, and describe in the rules the difference.
3. Voters and Judges should take into account the purpose of a model before judging it.
4. If CMoN doesn't consider game pieces legitimate entries, they should say so. A highly, but subtly, detailed model is put on a tabletop, it might just look dirty, rather than detailed. Likewise, a dirty tank often looks like crap up close, because it is made to look like it's covered in said crap.
As an internet voter, I'm not going to follow these rules, and I don't see why the judges should either. I do vote things that have simple gaming bases highly when the execution merits it—Justicar Weiss is a good example from this year—but if a well-executed and interesting base adds to a mini, it should also add to the score. I also wouldn't support a division between gaming and display pieces. There are plenty of categories already, and many of them receive very few entries as it is. Furthermore, the division between "gaming" minis and "display" minis is often very blurry.

1. the effort they put in, versus the 25 seconds it takes to snap a picture, and to honor their hard work.
and
2. the understanding that one man's pleasure is another's cause for tears. Blurred or non-details shots for some and not others is seriously insulting to the people who tried.
3. Are we supporting the world of miniature gaming and painting? Or are we out to prove our superiority by how high we can push our nose up? How many people who entered this contest walked away feeling cheated or like a loser because their models weren't given the same attention as other models? Some may see it as a challenge, but many will walk away disheartened - and that is a disservice to the future health of the hobby.
It's a competition, people who enter are going to be judged. That is the entire point of the event, and the entire point of Cool Mini or Not. Whether that judgment comes in the form of not making first cut, or getting a low score, or not being perceived and worthy of getting more than one photo, or being ranked #143 out of 150 minis—what's the difference? This isn't one of your third-grade soapbox derbies where everyone goes home with a trophy, so of course there will be winners and losers. If you can't handle criticism or a poor outcome, don't enter the competition.
 
Last edited:

ischa

New member
Corey, your comment has made my "stupidlist" of the day. This is a internet forum, meaning people from all over the world take part in a lightly discussion on whatever topic. The elitist attitude you portray in which that person who can´t write english to perfection doesn´t have a say, or seems ridiculous, is awful. Loads of us don´t even speak english as a first language, and even more of us cant be bothered with petty grammar mistakes as we try to keep an active discussion in several threads. It is possible you´re just a troll, but if you are, know that what you´re doing is mean, and you should stop it. This forum is all about minis, not being a grad student in english. Rarely do i ever find myself in the position where i want to call someone on CMON a jerk, but now is one of those times.
 

CoreyHaim8myDog

New member
I wasn't referring to the people for who English is a second language. I was referring to the native speakers who feel it is justified to piss all over someone's painting efforts while having the hypocrisy to write said review like a first grader. I find it funny and hypocritical that some of these folk get on their high horse about who should be able to enter a painting competition yet think it's fine to insult said people in another sort of elitist way. It's farily easy to make the distinction between a non-native speaker and someone who doesn't bother to give a crap about the composition of their little screed against amateur painters.
 

Griffin

New member
You guys are funny... lol
So what? The entries should be pre aproved befor put to voting and the ones that are not at least GD quality should be burned and the owner slaped in the face??? Don't worry it was taken care of by more photos and detail shots in favor of the "better" entries. The "ugly" minis have just one photo... so I would not call it a fair competition.
Very unprofesional...

Very good point!
 

ischa

New member
then again, a interwebs thread is a wee less serious than a multinational painting competition, isnt it?! distinctions are key.
 

EyeKahn

New member
Being at Adepticon 2012 and entering Crystal Brush I will say this: The pieces that won a least earned it having sen them in person. Is all the photography on the web perfect and ideal for judging? Perhaps now. However, the good news is that those that did win in many cases looked even better in person than on film. I have never been so very excited to not win a painting contest before because the entries that won were legitimately well painted in technique and execution and beautifully based. It would be nice, though, to see better close ups of the smaller figures. Regardless of any other factors it DOES make it more fair and more entertaining to see all the hard work that goes into them for everybody.
 

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
It takes a lot of time to photograph entries and I do understand the call to spend more time on the minis that were battling over the top positions. But I think to next year, at least one overall view and one close-up per mini to help us with the voting and show some love for everyone that entered.
 

LavronYor

Member
Having been there, I will say that this contest had the least WTF judgings that I have ever seen. In almost every category, the judging seemed spot on to what I perceived as correct. I have been to a lot of US Gamesdays and GenCons and know a large number of US painters that are the best of the best, at least in the states. I have been allowed to handle and look in detail at Gold Winners for the last 7 or 8 years. That said, there were some really nice entries this year. While some great painters may have been "scared" away, those who did come came to compete. Well, the top painters that is. There were less entries, but like every other competition, Strong years often are followed by Weaker years and then more "intermediate" painters feel hopeful and there are more entries the next year.

I talked to many of the top contestants this year and the attitudes were extremely positive. The overall winner Jose, was friendly and gracious and an honor to talk to as one of the long time greats of miniature painting. It was a pleasure meeting Avicenna and Tooshy and having a friendly chat with them. Likewise meeting and taking a class with Sebastian Archer was also really nice. As was sitting in a few of Mathieu Fontaine's classes.

To me, no matter how the photos affected things, the judging resulted in the prizes going to the appropriate people, and for that, CoolMini should be congratulated. Also, the extra category sponsored by BattleFoam allowed for one overlooked model to get the recognition it deserved, so thanks to them as well.

For the nay sayers, come to see for your self next year.
 
Back To Top
Top