Desperately need help.....

Wicksy

New member
....well, i thought i knew the basics of painting and blending. However my most recent forays have produced nothing but guff. I painted this guy: http://coolminiornot.com/251464 and was happy. I felt it a good start. So today i want to try painting a chaos marine sorcerer model.....i start with the robes. Purple. On goes about 8 thin layers of paint. Fine. Shading. ok. Highlights - ruined the model practically. I just want to dump it in stripper and start again. I found i i was getting very chalky looking layers that didnt seem to want to blend with the rest of the mid tone. I percevered and worked up to a light purple. I then added a wash hoping it would bring together the blend. One layer made no difference, two practically made the robes the base colour again........

I think i need to revisit the basics of thinning paint down and layering highlights in the right place....can anyone provide any tips? I seem to struggle with blends and highlights on small areas...and robes. The lines i paint for highlights just dont seem right.
 
It sounds to me as if you were tryingt to highlight your Purple robes with Bleached Bone or Skull White, causing it to become chalky...

To avoid that you should NOT use those Colors to highlight Purple (or Red, for example...), but instead START darker and use the Pure Purple as the Highlight... You will have to be very subtle and careful and the bigger the contrast between your Dark Color and the Pure one, the better the Result...

Okay...?... Try it... Maybe you could also post a Pic of what happened to that Sorcerer, so I can tell you more...

If you ever have the chance attend a Painting Class / Workshop... I think you are at a point where it will help you proceed in HUGE steps so much more easy then being frustrated from difficult techniques...
 

Wyrmypops

New member
There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about the issues with white paint. Many find it leads to chalkyness, which leads to despair, which leads to the darkside. The P3 range of white paint got mentioned as being superior in addressing that - the chalkyness that is, not the yellow eyes and tendency to cackle. I've picked some up on the strength of those recommendations, but early days, ain't used them enough to be able to confidentally agree. Worth a shot though eh. It's said a poor worksman blames his tools, but if it is his tools that are the problem what's he to do.

Purple is also a problem colour. Doesn't take much to shift its tone or hue compared to other areas of the colourwheel. Nabbing some flowaid/retarder to ensure the mix lasts has been something I felt the need to do, as trying to get the same tone/hue was on occasion a bit of a nightmare. A bit of that in a dropper bottle with some distilled water has worked out lovely for me - the convenience of thinning paint like nsures I actually bother rather than "bah, it's runny enough" and make mistakes through bring hasty.

Regardless, might be worthwhile going with a light purple or pink to add for the highlights. Keeps it pigmented.

That glaze you applied post layering was a good thing to do. It does draw the blending together, and inject a smidgeon of pigment to washed out areas in the highlights. Are you sure the first glaze wasn't too thin, and the second one applied too rich in pigment out of frustration at the first. Beware, the yellow eyes and cackling aren't condusive to a happy social life.
 

Eggroll

New member
I find that working from the highlight colour down to the shadows works best as it's always easier to darken an area than highlight it. If you can't avoid it, then when you're doing your highlights, make sure your highlight doesn't deviate from your base colour too greatly (ie going from purple to bleached bone). What I would try out is mixing it in 'steps' and going to your final bleached bone through 4-5 intermediate mixes. Example would be mixing first high light layer with 4/5 purple and 1/5 bleach bone, 2nd highlight in 3/5 purple and 2/5 bleached bone and so on. This should reduce the chalkiness. Good luck and keep at it!
 

Hendarion

Member
As a pre-word: I am using the terms "white-based" and "saturated" color, this is not an official naming for the types. But basically you can categorize acrylic colors like that more or less easily.

Now to the main message:
I've been painting purple currently and this is one of the colors that really can give headache and the order in which to blend is very important with purple. I am using a pink and white for highlighting.
1) If you basecoat purple and fade it over with pink or white, the saturation is lost big time and the layer looks gray-ish very fast, even if the blended layer was as thin as possible. It entirely destroys the look.
2) If you basecoat pink and fade it dark to purple, it receives a very strong saturation where the mid-tones between pink and purple are really really strong and might get a red-ish touch. White layers on pink on the other hand is no problem, since pink is "white-based" anyway.

So I always differ when blending to decide from which starting color to which end color I want to blend:
Is the color a saturated color or a white-base? Meaning: Is it possible to receive the same color by mixing white with another color or not? Light blue, pink, Bleached Bone surely are and even some greens (especially Coat D'Arms greens) might be of that type. Purple, brown and red mostly are mostly of that saturated type.
The order of painting then is: Paint the white-based first, then blend over the saturated color. That keeps a good saturated blend. Also it might be a mix. For example:
- Basecoat Vomit Brown (white-based)
- blending dark Flesh Wash (saturated type)
- highlighting with Bleached Bone (white-based)
As you see, a saturated was used to darken the base-coat, but a white-based was used to brighten the white-based basecoat.

As an example, here's a shot of what I'm talking about:
farseer.jpg


The left image is the original, the right one is with increased digital saturation to better show the difference. In real they are a tiny bit better to see than in the original, but I also want to point out the major thing I'm talking about.
The green marked area is a blend entirely made from pink to purple, leaving in the middle a very saturated color mix. The red areas had to be reworked, meaning I had messed it a bit and needed to paint with pink again which caused desaturation. A thin layer or purple gave back a little of the saturation, but not too much. That's why its more gray-ish.

Well, the essentials of my long talk maybe help you to paint such a difficult color as purple, but also to paint other colors that have the similar saturation-problem. If you blend opposite, meaning a white-based onto a saturated, then you not only lose saturation, but also very fast receive layers which simply don't want to blend with the rest, no matter how thin you go, they might look odd, gray or give the impression of a too thick painted layer, even if it wasn't. That's the effect of the white stuff in these colors.
The reasons behind this are:
- A white-based-color has very strong bright pigments which reflect more light themself than letting color going through and has nearly no transluciency. The pigments are opague themself, the light gets reflected. As if you put some milk-glass in front of a picture.
- A saturated color has always some transluciency (the pigments are or seam to be translucient themself) which causes in thin layers to give the belower layer to give a different hue without blocking the light entirely. It gets slowly absorbed while passing though the color. As if you put a clear colored glass in front or a picture.

As a last note: Some people prefer the non-toon-like-painting (which definetely is my favorite) and they darken always with a black-mix of the base-color and highlight with a white-mix of the base-color. That gives in the end a far more real look, but for me looks too much like our real gray world. ;) However, these painters of course always blend from the saturated base-coat towards the blackish shadows and towards the whitish highlights in this order, since their goal is not to keep the saturation like it is mine.
 
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Wicksy

New member
Thanks for the responses guys! I was tempted to strip the mini and go for a different colour that was easier to work on. However, the info you lot have posted has inspired me to try again. I used the was straight out of the pot. It was GW leviathan purple. As you can see from the following picture, it has all but washed out any shading and highlighting with the exception of the layer i put on top, which failed miserably. Paint wasnt watered down enough....

mistake1.jpg


I will strip the mini but i'm sticking with purple. The shades i had in mind were exactly those posted by Hendarion. Thats a great picture! Great advice too. Thank you! I'm not quite familiar with the terms used but as i understand it i should work up from liche purple (i use GW paints) using a pink colour...maybe with a touch of light blue or purple to het the he right?

Thanks again for the help! I have another mini to play with while the sorcerer strips off his dodgy paint job. Lets see whether i can do a better job this time :)
 

Hendarion

Member
Basically: Start with pink (I used Tentacle Pink) on the highlights or as base color, then shade down to Purple for the shadows. And if you need, use white for extreme highlights. That's all. :p And keep them watered very thin (no need to do that in the pot, you can do it on the brush too).
 
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Wicksy

New member
OK, i've had a go with better results that the above mess up. I'm not sure whether its going in the right direction.....it looks ok but i can seem to get a nice deep purple colour. I have about 30 layers of liche purple down.....i'm using a paint to water ratio of about 1:7. Have i diluted the paint too far? Or do i just need more layers? Not sure how many its supposed to take or is it more a "its takes as many layers as it takes" type thing?

Please excuse the hamfistedness but i seem to at least be getting there slowly. WIP of course ;)

wipmordheimdude.jpg
 

Hendarion

Member
I think the color:water ratio is fine. And generally (at least at me) its more the "it takes as many as it takes" approach. Specially with purple.
 
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