English Only Please . . .

[Torn blue sky]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
I\'m not dancing to someone elses tune, but there has to be a measure of tolerance in place at least.

Ah... but true tolerance would be to accept the owner\'s intolerance, No?

\"I have seen gross intolerance shown in support of tolerance”
Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Good point, but how can you really balance intolerance with tolerance? Like in this case it\'s as good as saying being a bit of an ass is ok? I\'m saying there should be a measure of tolerance, I mean how far does the line go?

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by laurence

Bon Appetite .

English only please....

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
Good point, but how can you really balance intolerance with tolerance? Like in this case it\'s as good as saying being a bit of an ass is ok? I\'m saying there should be a measure of tolerance, I mean how far does the line go?

As long as no one is getting physically hurt or their rights violated then Free Speech is supreme. Feelings may get hurt, but tough, that\'s the price to pay for Free Speech.
Sticks and Stones...

So, yeah, being a bit of an ass is OK, especially when it\'s your business and livelihood that suffers (or gains) when you are the ass.

Tolerance as used today is a buzzword, it means \"You must agree with me/my ideas or shut up.\"

Not all intolerance is a bad thing, just as not all tolerance is good.

 

[laurence]

Classic

Originally posted by supervike

Originally posted by laurence

Bon Appetite .

English only please....

What can I say? You\'re such a funny and cool d00d!

Thanks Supervike!

 

[airhead]

Originally posted by laurence
... Escaping turmoil, war, harsh conditions or whatever to start a new life in another, often surreal environment must be such a huge ordeal for citizens of this globe. We all share the same planet...

But they don\'t want to share. They want it all.

Do a quick search on Atzlan or Anchor Babies.


Current:

Goal:

 

[Torn blue sky]

Originally posted by Evil Dave


As long as no one is getting physically hurt or their rights violated then Free Speech is supreme.

Tolerance as used today is a buzzword, it means \"You must agree with me/my ideas or shut up.\"

Not all intolerance is a bad thing, just as not all tolerance is good.

Sooo what about the rights of the people who just want to eat? Can you imagine if everyone had the same attitude?
And to be honest whats the difference between mental and physical abuse? A few cuts and bruises, yeah, but it still hurts just as much don\'t it? Try telling a mentally abused person the \"sticks and stones\" philosophy.
If it\'s all about \"free speech\" then shouldnt\' people have the right to speak in any language they want? Or does that just apply to Americans

 

[airhead]

What about the right of the owner? It is his business. He should be allowed to say pretty much what he wants to within his walls. If the customers don\'t like it, they are not forced to eat there.

Plus, he is not a government institution.

I remember signs that used to say \"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.\" Not usually aimed at anyone in gerneral, but if they bounced you out and told you don\'t come back - the sign was how they kept you out.

Try this pic:

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Torn blue sky

Originally posted by Evil Dave


As long as no one is getting physically hurt or their rights violated then Free Speech is supreme.

Tolerance as used today is a buzzword, it means \"You must agree with me/my ideas or shut up.\"

Not all intolerance is a bad thing, just as not all tolerance is good.

Sooo what about the rights of the people who just want to eat?

Show me in the Bill of Rights where anyone other than the owner of an establishment has the right to demand what goes on in that establishment.

Can you imagine if everyone had the same attitude?

Probably a lot more tolerant people and less self righteous easily offended twits?

And to be honest whats the difference between mental and physical abuse? A few cuts and bruises, yeah, but it still hurts just as much don\'t it? Try telling a mentally abused person the \"sticks and stones\" philosophy.

Words only have as much power as you let them, a concept that is getting scarcer and scarcer in these generations raised in a PC environment, in which everyone is \"special\".

If it\'s all about \"free speech\" then shouldnt\' people have the right to speak in any language they want? Or does that just apply to Americans

They have the right, just don\'t expect others to bend to their choice, or even disapprove of it, or even use their Freedom of Speech to denounce their choice.
Freedom of Speech does not mean you are consequence free, it merely means the government cannot pass laws or punish you for speaking your piece. Your words still have consequences from those they offend, who may then use their Freedom of Speech against you or use their freedom of choice and not support you with their money.

 

[Torn blue sky]

Originally posted by airhead
What about the right of the owner? It is his business. He should be allowed to say pretty much what he wants to within his walls. If the customers don\'t like it, they are not forced to eat there.

Plus, he is not a government institution.

I remember signs that used to say \"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.\" Not usually aimed at anyone in gerneral, but if they bounced you out and told you don\'t come back - the sign was how they kept you out.

Try this pic:

Ok yeah, I do agree with managerial rights. But a sign saying something like \" We reserve the right to refuse service\" is a lot less threatening that the one he put up. That picture is just wrong though, urban terrorists can die in the gutter in their droves for all I care about them.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by airhead

I remember signs that used to say \"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.\" Not usually aimed at anyone in gerneral, but if they bounced you out and told you don\'t come back - the sign was how they kept you out.

But unfortunately, there are business people that don\'t know where that imaginary line is. Just as easily they could mean \"We reserve the right to not serve Black Folks\".

Of course there is an entire clothing line based on that premise, (in reverse) and no one seems to mind at all...

 

[Torn blue sky]

Well yeah, I\'d say some great points have been made. I can\'t say I agree with all of them, but thats up to the individual. I can respect that.
This thread can just go on and on and on without going anywhere for all the \'lines\' there are. It\'s more a question of morals vs the law, you just can\'t win any ground there.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

@airhead. Sorry dude but those pictures are scare mongering bullshit. You are basically saying we should judge an entire grouping of people based on the radical ideals of a minority.

If I put up pictures of white guys committing murder would it be valid to then treat all white guys as murderers?

I deal with immigrants (legal) every week and for the most part very hard working people who have a real desire to move ahead. Some don\'t have great english (in New Zealand the level of English needed is based on the type of job you are going for)

We also have a large refugee population in Hamilton from Somalia. This group is a favourite whipping boy for the anti anything not white and English brigade and yet their crime rate is barely above national average - it just gets reported more because the local media has decided it is of interest. So EVERY problem is in the paper and gives a disproportionate view of what the reality is.

I would rather guess the same happens in your country as well as must countries.

 

[Astonia]

I agree that you should try to learn the language of the country you live in, but things are never easy when you move abroad.

Even moving from Sweden to England proved to be quite hard in language and culture shock terms. I really didn\'t expect that. I thought that it would be a piece of cake understanding people and customs, explaining myself, ordering food, going to the bank, getting a doctor, dentist, whatever....but it wasn\'t.
Even though I consider my english to be good (we learn it in school at age 9-10 in Sweden, and have subtitles on everything, plus I\'ve studied english literature at uni), I wasn\'t prepared for the diffrence between TV/school/music/popculture and the reality of diffrent dialects, accents, sociolects etc. Or the fact that people didn\'t understand me, which can easily lead to a negative spiral where you speak less and less to not embarass yourself.
Not to mention attitudes. Of course, being a white, middleclass, Swedish woman, most people are (sometimes too) nice to me, but that\'s just me being lucky. If you are met by an arrogant, ignorant or just plain rude attitude when trying to speak another language it makes it a hell of a lot worse.

Unfortunately people judge other people way too quickly (just becasue you can hardly say something doesn\'t mean you\'re not trying), and learning new languages is actually really difficult. It doesn\'t come overnight, especially when you\'re adult. Adding in other issues like war trauma, being forced to flee, or just the stress of culture shocks that go way past my confusion at the local supermarket/pub/in general, I can easily understand why some people go for the comfort of their own culture and language.

I know I hung out with mostly swedes and other scandinavians in the beginning over here. Luckily, like I said, Scandinavian people are well met almost everywhere in the western world. But I still feel the huge difference between speaking in my own language, where I can be ME, and speaking english (which I love to do, I did study linguistics after all).

I also had the benefit of freely going to another country to work, I wasn\'t dragged along by someone, or being forced there. (Or just trying my luck at a better life becasue I\'ve heard so many great things about England/USA/any other western country which might prove to be completely false once you actually make it there).

And this is not to excuse people who truly want to destroy the society to which they have come, it\'s just my experiences as a Swede living in a foreign country since 3 years.

Shit, that\'s the longest post I\'ve ever made!

 

[supervike]

Wow, well said, and a very unique perspective.

And I\'m not just being nice because of your heritage....:beer:

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Astonia
I agree that you should try to learn the language of the country you live in, but things are never easy when you move abroad.

Even moving from Sweden to England proved to be quite hard in language and culture shock terms. I really didn\'t expect that. I thought that it would be a piece of cake understanding people and customs, explaining myself, ordering food, going to the bank, getting a doctor, dentist, whatever....but it wasn\'t.
Even though I consider my english to be good (we learn it in school at age 9-10 in Sweden, and have subtitles on everything, plus I\'ve studied english literature at uni), I wasn\'t prepared for the diffrence between TV/school/music/popculture and the reality of diffrent dialects, accents, sociolects etc. Or the fact that people didn\'t understand me, which can easily lead to a negative spiral where you speak less and less to not embarass yourself.
Not to mention attitudes. Of course, being a white, middleclass, Swedish woman, most people are (sometimes too) nice to me, but that\'s just me being lucky. If you are met by an arrogant, ignorant or just plain rude attitude when trying to speak another language it makes it a hell of a lot worse.

Unfortunately people judge other people way too quickly (just becasue you can hardly say something doesn\'t mean you\'re not trying), and learning new languages is actually really difficult. It doesn\'t come overnight, especially when you\'re adult. Adding in other issues like war trauma, being forced to flee, or just the stress of culture shocks that go way past my confusion at the local supermarket/pub/in general, I can easily understand why some people go for the comfort of their own culture and language.

I know I hung out with mostly swedes and other scandinavians in the beginning over here. Luckily, like I said, Scandinavian people are well met almost everywhere in the western world. But I still feel the huge difference between speaking in my own language, where I can be ME, and speaking english (which I love to do, I did study linguistics after all).

I also had the benefit of freely going to another country to work, I wasn\'t dragged along by someone, or being forced there. (Or just trying my luck at a better life becasue I\'ve heard so many great things about England/USA/any other western country which might prove to be completely false once you actually make it there).

And this is not to excuse people who truly want to destroy the society to which they have come, it\'s just my experiences as a Swede living in a foreign country since 3 years.

Shit, that\'s the longest post I\'ve ever made!

The difference is in trying and attitude.
You are trying to assimilate, to learn the language and the culture, this is commendable and should you come to the US with this attitude, you would be welcomed with open arms.

The problem we are facing is that the illegal immigrants here do not respect our laws, evidenced from the fact that they are here illegally, break more laws (stealing identities and social security numbers, unregistered unlicensed vehicles etc. etc.), do not want to learn the language, and insist that they are owed a living as well as access to our social services.
Name another country in which people in the country illegally would have the gall to march for their rights waving the flags of their country of origin.

Race isn\'t the issue, the attitude, and unwillingness to assimilate is.


To put this in another perspective: How would you feel if a huge amount of Swedes came to England illegally, demanding all the social services of a citizen, demanding that the schools be taught bilingually, driving your crime rate up in every area they settle, while marching in your streets causing massive traffic delays, shutting down businesses, often causing violence, while waving the Swedish flag? All the while not contributing to the taxes (or very little) to meet these demands that they as non-citizens are not entitled to in the first place, yet not wanting to go through the steps to become a citizen, or even a legal immigrant?

 

[airhead]

Dr. E, I said earlier that I\'ve no problem with anyone who is trying to get ahead by getting a work visa and coming over. Want to become a citizen - great. Glad you\'re here - pay taxes. Want to go home - that\'s ok too.

Many of the illegals are over here just to get ahead. I\'ve no real problem with any of them other than the drain of the entire system they cause. But there is a large percentage of the illegals that are here with another agenda. (see my earlier posts - not scaremongering when you see them marching in your streets saying they will take over). I\'m saying is I don\'t blame this guy for feeling that this country is becoming more and more Mexico/America and for trying to make a statement about it.

EDave - I love it when you sum up everything I\'m trying to get out of my brain.

 

[Astonia]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
The difference is in trying and attitude.
You are trying to assimilate, to learn the language and the culture, this is commendable and should you come to the US with this attitude, you would be welcomed with open arms.

The problem we are facing is that the illegal immigrants here do not respect our laws, evidenced from the fact that they are here illegally, break more laws (stealing identities and social security numbers, unregistered unlicensed vehicles etc. etc.), do not want to learn the language, and insist that they are owed a living as well as access to our social services.
Name another country in which people in the country illegally would have the gall to march for their rights waving the flags of their country of origin.

Race isn\'t the issue, the attitude, and unwillingness to assimilate is.

Well, I can\'t blame all illegal immigrants for trying to make a better living. If you\'re refused entry into a country but still face death, torture, prosecution or just nothing back home, I can understand people going underground and living illegally in a country. I really think it takes a lot for someone to uproot themselves and leave everything behind, without knowing for certain what will happen.

I\'m not saying it\'s right, only that I can understand it.

Although, sometimes I wonder how much it is our western business and politics around the world that creates the need for people to flee (and most never come as far as the western world). That\'s just a thought, not a fact.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Astonia
Well, I can\'t blame all illegal immigrants for trying to make a better living. If you\'re refused entry into a country but still face death, torture, prosecution or just nothing back home, I can understand people going underground and living illegally in a country. I really think it takes a lot for someone to uproot themselves and leave everything behind, without knowing for certain what will happen.

I agree, however, once they\'re here, what is to stop them from assimilating? Hell, had most of our illegals even put forth a token effort to assimilate, the vast majority of us would have never noticed them.
Something in the old country was obviously bad enough to leave the old country, why bring it with you? Why not embrace the new country\'s language and customs?
And if you still identify with your old country, then why not stay and work to make it better?

 

[JesterzUSMC]

It really is about fairness and equality.
If you are moving to a different country, you should learn the language. But at the same time you should be subject to the local laws as well.
For instance:
In my local county it is illegal for more than one family to live in a single family dwelling.
BUT, there are several Mexican families(some legal citizens some not) living together in single family dwellings, and nothing is said because,(And I quote directly from the beaurocrats responsible) \"that is how they live\".
So why should we respect their way of life if they don\'t respect ours? THEY chose to move here!
If others who are

 

[supervike]

I wonder what happens to all the money that is collected via the \'fake\' social security numbers that illegals use.

Obviously, they never are able to collect on it.

Seems to me, if you\'ve got 12,000,000 working illegals, and Social Security pulls just 10 bucks a week from these folks...

That is 5.7 BILLION dollars a year of unclaimable REAL money going into that system.

That would fund an awful lot of \'covert\' actions.

Maybe there is a reason the Government is so lax on correcting the problem.