Future outlook

[IdofEntity]

With all the demonstration, protesting, and revolution burning through the world right now what do you think the outlook is going to be? Are things turning for the better (for whom?), or is the world going to hell in a hand basket? (for whom?)

I figured it would be worth asking all of you since most of this crew is literate. That, and trolling is usually a minimum.

 

[PegaZus]

Ahem, all together now:

"We didn't start the fire...."

 

[generulpoleaxe]

With all the demonstration, protesting, and revolution burning through the world right now what do you think the outlook is going to be? Are things turning for the better (for whom?), or is the world going to hell in a hand basket? (for whom?)

I figured it would be worth asking all of you since most of this crew is literate. That, and trolling is usually a minimum.

The same groups will still call the shots, it's only the middle men that are being replaced.
If you want real change then don't look to any goverment to help you, power for the few over the many will only ever breed corruption.
I best stop or I will just end up ranting as politics is responsible for ALL of the evils within the world.

 

[supervike]

Without wanted to get too controversial, I have been thinking recently that if we (meaning the US) think democracy is the best form of government, then we need to let these people who desperately want their freedoms, to decide for themselves. We (again the US) should endevour to stay out of it.

I realize that's looking through things with rose colored glasses, but being free from oppression should be the right of all the World's citizens.

 

[Dedwrekka]

The same groups will still call the shots, it's only the middle men that are being replaced.
If you want real change then don't look to any goverment to help you, power for the few over the many will only ever breed corruption.
I best stop or I will just end up ranting as politics is responsible for ALL of the evils within the world.

It's easier to go with the way things were, even if it doesn't stop anything. Washington wasn't even warm in his seat before people tried to get him elected president for life and tried to get him to agree to be king. Even if there are a few higher up individuals in a revolution that know precisely what's going on, the mass of it is less informed individuals that easily fall into the same routines and contrivances that caused the problem to begin with.

We'll see where the world stands when the smoke clears. Though it isn't looking particularly good. It's not even the real big problems that are starting to worry me. It's things like us running out of certain elements necessary in modern living, and the fact that a few soured populations are turning to extremeism that threatens rational life.

I'm less afraid of a big event and more afraid that there wont be one. It took major worldwide events to turn civilization to the road we're on now, but we're seeing a sharp turn ahead, and if nothing big happens to make people focus on the situation we're just going to crash. It took imperialism and world wars to get us out of major economic crisies in the past. It took great strife to make us realise how alike we are. Too much peacful living seems the antithesis of human advancement.

 

[supervike]

Too much peacful living seems the antithesis of human advancement.

While I agree a bit with this, we really have never had an opportunity to give it an honest try.

 

[Master of fact]

I dont know but the middle east needs to pull its socks up, im paying £1.32 a litre of petrol with prices set to sky rocket upto £6.50 a litre if they dont calm down over there........

On a serious note, Northern Ireland has had its problems and worked out, lets hope these other places ruled by twats get the same.

Peace out and all that.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

I dont know but the middle east needs to pull its socks up, im paying £1.32 a litre of petrol with prices set to sky rocket upto £6.50 a litre if they dont calm down over there........

On a serious note, Northern Ireland has had its problems and worked out, lets hope these other places ruled by twats get the same.

Peace out and all that.

Those other places ruled by "twats" are ruled by "twats" that OUR goverments either put in place or funded, hell most of the middle east extremists were trained by western goverments and still to this day recieve funding from western goverments.
The sooner people stand by each other and tell goverments to step off the sooner we as a race will be better off.

 

[Master of fact]

oh i know that! we do need to step off and let people govern themselves. let them vote.

 

[supervike]

Those other places ruled by "twats" are ruled by "twats" that OUR goverments either put in place or funded, hell most of the middle east extremists were trained by western goverments and still to this day recieve funding from western goverments.
The sooner people stand by each other and tell goverments to step off the sooner we as a race will be better off.

That's the thing that stings so much. These brutal dictatorships have been funded by us (the western world) because they provided Stability to the region. I know it's not as simple as all that, and the complexities of the whole thing would take years to fully understand...But I'll repeat my earlier point.

If we really feel that Democracy is the best way for free peoples to live, then we HAVE to accept what they choose.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

That's the thing that stings so much. These brutal dictatorships have been funded by us (the western world) because they provided Stability to the region. I know it's not as simple as all that, and the complexities of the whole thing would take years to fully understand...But I'll repeat my earlier point.

If we really feel that Democracy is the best way for free peoples to live, then we HAVE to accept what they choose.

The problem with Democracy is that it gives legitamcy to what goverments have been up to. All people need is a night watchmen state that is there for defence only. The people should be the ones that decide how their communities get by/are organized.
It's time we stepped away from Fascism (goverments and corperations acting as one) and the only way to do so is to take power from goverments and give it back to the people.

 

[Aidan K]

Well, the Rapture Index has increased by two points lately, so i'd say the end times are closer...

Seriously though, I agree with Vike in a way; we have to let these countries resolve their governance issues by themselves, with the caveat that there should be some protection for innocent people if possible.

 

[IdofEntity]

Well, the Rapture Index has increased by two points lately, so i'd say the end times are closer...

Seriously though, I agree with Vike in a way; we have to let these countries resolve their governance issues by themselves, with the caveat that there should be some protection for innocent people if possible.

True, the USA doesn't need to further the appearance of manipulating these states. There's an air of bumbling puppeteer tied to the USA's diplomacy. That protection for innocent people is supposed to be handled by the United Nations, no?

Dedwrekka, a global event is indeed required for any significant advancement to take place. The thing is, a globel event is unavoidable. Either a technological innovation in the nick of time will happen (for fear of resource war), or resource wars will resurface. Either one will probably solve the issue for a time, but one is far more desirable that the other. You're right about peaceful living. We don't do it that well. Conflict is in our nature. All organisms are in constant conflict with their ecosystem, and our ecosystem is simply on a larger scale. All species compete against their own, to some degree or another.

 

[Dedwrekka]

On a serious note, Northern Ireland has had its problems and worked out, lets hope these other places ruled by twats get the same.

Peace out and all that.

No offense to any people from Ireland, but lets hope it doesn't work out like that conflict. It was going since the 1500s and was the breeding ground of new guerrilla tactics.

The problem with Democracy is that it gives legitamcy to what goverments have been up to. All people need is a night watchmen state that is there for defence only. The people should be the ones that decide how their communities get by/are organized.

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Winston Churchill

The "Defense only" state, is terrible at stopping people from being stupid (like killing hundreds of acres of farm land by over producing), has no controls on the economy, production, or humane work conditions, and tends to fail at all the controls that the current government keeps in place. Yeah, they overstep their bounds a lot, but the basic protections put in place by the government are necessary. When you chafe against a seatbelt, you readjust it, not remove it, the steel frame, and the airbag.

It's time we stepped away from Fascism (goverments and corperations acting as one) and the only way to do so is to take power from goverments and give it back to the people.

Well, that's not actually what Fascism is. The corporatism part of Fascism refers to the body of the people, not to a corporation. Of course, the only way to remove corporate influences from government is to make it more authoritarian, not less. If a government is less authoritarian, then it is easier for corporations to control it via lobbyists, political interest groups, and mass media propaganda.
The people are easier to sway than the leaders drawn from it, but the leaders have to listen to the people. The loudest voice of the people is the one that can afford professional representation and is fully capable of inciting the largest crowd.
Just look at the Tea Party. They originally started off as small, local protests against rampant and inflated State taxes in heavily hit areas like New York. Once they hit the mass media, there began to be protests in even low tax areas held by Republicans, but if you looked at them you could see fundamental differences in the protests. The ones fighting state taxes were trying to fight inflated local taxes and being very uncaring about which party was doing it. The other protests showed obvious GOP influence, stating that "High Federal Taxes"* were the fault of the democrats, and they got more attention. This ignores the obvious facts (see below), also that we're deficit spending (fixing it means more taxes), and we're in still a recession (Fixing it means the government spending more) that is getting hit by the small waves that precede massive stagflation. How do I know that's coming? Gas prices have made the leap of death in the past weeks, and the instability in the middle east means gas production is going to take a nose dive and drag the chained economy along with it (It spiked from 02-08 and it's hitting a steep spike when the revolutions happened).



*An idea that sends me into a fit of giggles every time I see it. We have the lowest federal taxes in 60 years! Hahaha! http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002548-503544.html

 

[supervike]

Well, the Rapture Index has increased by two points lately, so i'd say the end times are closer...

.

I'm gonna be really pissed off if the rapture comes, and I don't get left behind....I got lots of painting to do! The end time will have to wait.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

No offense to any people from Ireland, but lets hope it doesn't work out like that conflict. It was going since the 1500s and was the breeding ground of new guerrilla tactics.




"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Winston Churchill

The "Defense only" state, is terrible at stopping people from being stupid (like killing hundreds of acres of farm land by over producing), has no controls on the economy, production, or humane work conditions, and tends to fail at all the controls that the current government keeps in place. Yeah, they overstep their bounds a lot, but the basic protections put in place by the government are necessary. When you chafe against a seatbelt, you readjust it, not remove it, the steel frame, and the airbag.


Well, that's not actually what Fascism is. The corporatism part of Fascism refers to the body of the people, not to a corporation. Of course, the only way to remove corporate influences from government is to make it more authoritarian, not less. If a government is less authoritarian, then it is easier for corporations to control it via lobbyists, political interest groups, and mass media propaganda.
The people are easier to sway than the leaders drawn from it, but the leaders have to listen to the people. The loudest voice of the people is the one that can afford professional representation and is fully capable of inciting the largest crowd.
Just look at the Tea Party. They originally started off as small, local protests against rampant and inflated State taxes in heavily hit areas like New York. Once they hit the mass media, there began to be protests in even low tax areas held by Republicans, but if you looked at them you could see fundamental differences in the protests. The ones fighting state taxes were trying to fight inflated local taxes and being very uncaring about which party was doing it. The other protests showed obvious GOP influence, stating that "High Federal Taxes"* were the fault of the democrats, and they got more attention. This ignores the obvious facts (see below), also that we're deficit spending (fixing it means more taxes), and we're in still a recession (Fixing it means the government spending more) that is getting hit by the small waves that precede massive stagflation. How do I know that's coming? Gas prices have made the leap of death in the past weeks, and the instability in the middle east means gas production is going to take a nose dive and drag the chained economy along with it (It spiked from 02-08 and it's hitting a steep spike when the revolutions happened).



*An idea that sends me into a fit of giggles every time I see it. We have the lowest federal taxes in 60 years! Hahaha! http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002548-503544.html

With respect, the larger goverment gets the more authoritarian it gets, the more it takes and the more people with "influence" can get from it. History has shown it time and time again.
And regarding Fascism, look at Mussolinis description of it, not the rewritten newspeak version by goverments. Lobbying is part of corperations and goverments acting as one against the interests of the people, it is part of Fascism.
The more power you give a goverment the more power you are allowing invested interests to get when they purchase priviledge from goverment.

It also looks like various goverments are pushing for invasion so as to install another puppet regime in Libya, so much for authoritarian big state being better eh!

 

[Aidan K]

I'm gonna be really pissed off if the rapture comes, and I don't get left behind....I got lots of painting to do! The end time will have to wait.

We can be members one and two of "Team Purgatory" painters!

 

[Chern Ann]

I think the only time big government isn't necessary is if the power of the individual to affect the rest of the population is very low; i.e. in an pre-industrial or slightly post-industrial economy. Once you have the ability to manufacture drugs on a large scale, or weapons, or fertilizers, or fast food, the only thing that keeps corporations accountable is well organized citizenry that funds watchdogs with enforcement teeth. I don't think there's really any other definition for that than a government, like it or not. Without these bodies, there would be little incentive for truth in advertising, extensive drug trials, limited pesticides, controlled deforestation etc, as companies are notoriously short sighted due to profit motivations. Without a legitimate force to counter this, the alternative would be...? Lynch mobs? Hoping people will be nice to each other? That's only effective at a local level, it doesn't work in a situation where private collective power rivals public collective power even with big government.

So, if you like the computer you're reading this on, the Internet it's connected to, the power grid that's supplying the electricity and in all likelihood the building you're in (that complies with safety codes, enforced by government), you're stuck. If you're ok with living in a pre-industrial world, you probably won't be affected very much at all (like the Amish) and the rest of us (and the government) probably won't care what you get up to since it's unlikely to affect anyone else.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

I think the only time big government isn't necessary is if the power of the individual to affect the rest of the population is very low; i.e. in an pre-industrial or slightly post-industrial economy. Once you have the ability to manufacture drugs on a large scale, or weapons, or fertilizers, or fast food, the only thing that keeps corporations accountable is well organized citizenry that funds watchdogs with enforcement teeth. I don't think there's really any other definition for that than a government, like it or not. Without these bodies, there would be little incentive for truth in advertising, extensive drug trials, limited pesticides, controlled deforestation etc, as companies are notoriously short sighted due to profit motivations. Without a legitimate force to counter this, the alternative would be...? Lynch mobs? Hoping people will be nice to each other? That's only effective at a local level, it doesn't work in a situation where private collective power rivals public collective power even with big government.

So, if you like the computer you're reading this on, the Internet it's connected to, the power grid that's supplying the electricity and in all likelihood the building you're in (that complies with safety codes, enforced by government), you're stuck. If you're ok with living in a pre-industrial world, you probably won't be affected very much at all (like the Amish) and the rest of us (and the government) probably won't care what you get up to since it's unlikely to affect anyone else.

Whilst you make a good point Chern the large corperations that supposedly are acountable to goverment use goverment to get out of their acountability. Many supposedly benefits through acountability etc are actualy used to get rid of smaller competition.
Basic contract LAW actualy gives better protection than most goverment regulations, if an international contract law for the echnage of services, employment and goods was introduced it would remove the problems created by goverments as well as help keep companies of all sizes acountable to their employees and customers.

Goverments don't have to be big to be effective but we do need to sort out the problems cause by the modern version of the feudal system that the world as a whole operates under currently.

 

[Einion]

The problem with Democracy is that it gives legitamcy to what goverments have been up to.
And what about other forms of government? Seriously, does despotism or communism strike you as being better in this regard in any way?

All people need is a night watchmen state that is there for defence only. The people should be the ones that decide how their communities get by/are organized.
It's time we stepped away from Fascism (goverments and corperations acting as one) and the only way to do so is to take power from goverments and give it back to the people.

This sounds rosy and I'm sure you have a good idea of what "giving power back to the people" means in practice, but frankly it strikes me as wishful thinking at best. Basically you're talking about some form of socialism (yes?) and we've seen just how well that goes in practice... it does look good on paper but it's an idealism; because it doesn't take into the account the actual nature of people it fails the pragmatism test.

Decentralisation of authority is something that democratic governments have done to varying degrees of success at different times, but I'd argue that its success is predicated on it being done within a democracy (with its inherent checks and balances yadda yadda).

Einion