Future outlook

Chern Ann

Only when they're green
Staff member
Who enforces the contracts? It's just a government by another name, which effectively has to step in and pick up the slack where there is no obvious profit motive. I think more effort should be made to make government accountable, rather than worry about its size. You cannot have an FDA without a large government; there is zero incentive NOT to release a drug and attempt to gloss over / pay off side effects; the situation is similar in large scale farming and the management of natural resources like mining. While all systems are prone to abuse, focusing on fixing or limiting the abuse will do more good than going with no system. There is a tendency to focus on failures, since these are pointed out when they fail; success is routine and you are rarely exposed to it in the media and have to research it yourself. In any event, since there are at least two sides in any dispute, whichever way a judge decides, someone is going to be pissed. That doesn't mean we don't need judges. A lot of the first year of law school is drilling into newbies, it's not always obvious who's right and who's wrong, even if everyone is telling the truth. If it were easy, they wouldn't be in court. But everyone needs a decision that doesn't involve Party A and Party B charging each other on the fens with claymores.

For example, how do you weigh the interests of doing open pit mining in a town of say, 10,000 people, versus the fact that it will employ directly and indirectly, 100,000 people? Who would you prefer making the judgement call? Nobody (i.e. whoever has the most guns wins), a private corporation accountable only to its shareholders, or an elected body that may get it wrong? Someone is going to be complaining about injustice anyway, the townsfolk or the people out of jobs or the mining company's shareholders. They are all people.

"What, cars pollute, have green house gas emissions and waste fuel?" "Horses I say!", which is the easy way. Electric vehicles is the hard way. I know which one I prefer frankly, but your mileage may vary; electric cars are unlikely to catch on without large scale investment in recharging stations and tax breaks/incentives to encourage their use. The world is very interconnected and extremely complex, simpler is only better if everything is simpler. You really can't pick and choose the bits you like (safe drugs, nice housing, roads, lots of food) and leave the bits you don't (corruption, decisions that don't go your way, taxes, lobbyists, people who don't share your world view). To give you another example, heat is the enemy in computing. That does not mean Intel makes the same processor they did last year; they solve the problem and invent new methods of generating less heat to get faster computers. But... there's always going to be heat. If you really hate the heat, you have to stop using computers.
 
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IdofEntity

New member
So Chern, are you saying the world works better when there is a set of checks and balances within a government, and when technological advancement is consistent across all business sectors? And that the size of the government is less important than the ability to enforce its authority and the efficiency with which it does that?
 

Chern Ann

Only when they're green
Staff member
So Chern, are you saying the world works better when there is a set of checks and balances within a government, and when technological advancement is consistent across all business sectors? And that the size of the government is less important than the ability to enforce its authority and the efficiency with which it does that?

Absent a viable alternative to check private power, we can't live in a modern world without a government prepared to get in its face. Technological advancement simply means more power in the hands of the private sector -> even Google, due to its position as the dominant search engine, is being checked for unfair competition in promoting its own services over others by the EU, as was Microsoft.

When you talk about government size, what you are really talking about is efficiency and consistency. It is not the same as saying, we need no government, we can manage ourselves.... but the moment we organize, guess what, we're a government.

In addition, a certain amount of waste is going to be generated in any organization, be it governments or private companies. Private companies have the luxury of going bankrupt and not adversely affecting too many people (they can go work for their more efficient competitors). Governments cannot fail without spectacular consequences unfortunately since countries are rather unwilling to take refugees, no matter how skilled. Minimizing this corruption by improving transparency and accountability is good and we are accelerating towards it; a lot of democratic governments now have open data policies regarding their decisions which are open to independent scrutiny. More of this can't hurt, certainly.
 
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Dedwrekka

New member
With respect, the larger goverment gets the more authoritarian it gets,
Yes and no, in most cases it is not a case of the government trying to take more power, nor one of the government growing and then trying to take more power. The biggest increase in government in the US was during the 20s-40s, started by the government in an effort to change and prevent the effects of the Great Depression. There were subsidies placed on crops and government oversight committees created to make sure that farmers wouldn't simply farm their land until it died. They created civilian conservation corps to employ thousands of unemployed people, hoovervilles to give the abused and mistreated "Okies" a place to live and work without being abused by what essentially became a slave trade, and bank holidays to make sure that banks had time to recoup from bank blitzes.

It wasn't because they said "hey, let's get more power" it was because regular people were abusing the hell out of the economy and American life and someone had to step in and tell them to stop.
the more it takes
Larger government + not enough taxes = Dead civilization. And, as a matter of fact, the government has gotten larger in the last few years, while lowering taxes.
and the more people with "influence" can get from it.

How are you seeing this? Is it "More people are misusing their influence in larger government" or "A larger percentage are misusing their influence"?
I can guarantee the latter has gone down significantly. Until we have another William Magear Tweed or J Edgar Hoover I think we're doing pretty good. Not excellent, but certainly far from an increase in corruption.
History has shown it time and time again.
Rarely, and usually in short-lived bursts.
After a certain point a fully corrupt system is unable to support itself.
And regarding Fascism, look at Mussolini's description of it, not the rewritten newspeak version by goverments.
It wasn't. In Mussolini's Fascism the "corporatist economy" refers to the management and structure of the government's method of dealing with economics. Which is a distinction muddled by his use of existing corporations and businessmen to determine how industry should be legislated, rather than creating corporations from whole cloth for that purpose.


Lobbying is part of corporations and governments acting as one against the interests of the people, it is part of Fascism.
No, it is part of democracy, and even government as a whole, since the Greeks. In Fascism corporations don't lobby the government because economic issues are dealt with by the proscribed corporation, which is a separate entity from the government.
There are also plenty of non-corporation lobbies in government, and in fact the vast majority of lobbies are more politically minded than economicly minded. Even so, the government has avoided the vast majority of corporate lobbies. However, when it comes to economic lobbyists, it's impossible as corporations attach themselves to one side or the other, and indeed all economic lobbies have some form of contact with a corporation, but are not necessarily driven by that corporation.

The other thing you have to realize is that, large group or not, they all people, even the corporations. It's an easy distinction to miss, and there's a sociological want to make something big and adverse to our ideals into something less or inhuman. It's why GW ends up hated as an entity and not as a group of people. If the company does something wrong, they blame the company but love particular artists, even though by blaming or bludgeoning the company they do so to the entire company, even the lowest artist.


The more power you give a goverment the more power you are allowing invested interests to get when they purchase priviledge from goverment.
Yes, and in most cases those "vested interests" are the people and not corporations. Even the biggest corporation cannot muster enough people to sway opinion on their own, and even the best talker cannot over-rule the masses in the eyes of a politician. A corporation might make it hard for them to get re-elected, but failing in the eyes of the masses makes it impossible.
It also looks like various goverments are pushing for invasion so as to install another puppet regime in Libya, so much for authoritarian big state being better eh!
Well, it's nothing new actually. Look at a map of the Middle East and Africa, 80% of those governments are put in place by the efforts of another country. It has nothing to do with authoritarianism or not. The most peaceful countries make efforts to change the landscape of the world to their viewpoint. I've only recently discovered that it's what Tibet did with remaking their country into a "peacful, pacifist land conquered by the big mean communists", when they had an army under the Dalai Lama (supported by the CIA), signed an agreement that allowed their autonomy, then rebelled (along with bloody guerrilla warfare) and fled while denouncing the agreement.

Edited for my atrocious spelling
 
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