Gauth the sick Dragon—epoxy & gap filling problems

[KruleBear]

To force myself to get some more mini’s painted I committed on the Reaper forum to complete a Dragon by the end of the year. So I decided to do their very cool Gauth Dragon I bought when they first came out (15 years ago?).

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At the time I used 15 minute mid cure two part epoxy by Bob Smith Industries packaged for hobby shops to assemble him. I was obviously impatient at the time as the wing protrudes out of the socket pretty significantly—about a ½” but it doesn’t show up well in the picture.
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My first question—any good suggestions for easily breaking the epoxy bond so I can refit the wing? (I had someone suggest carefully wrapping him in bubble wrap. Put in a box carefully with packing peanuts and take him to a gaming event—guaranteed to have the wings fall off in route J)
OR should I try to sculpt the ridge into the scales—this seems impractical do to only having filled gaps or made mud piles on slotta bases in the past with filler.
Finally I have several gaps to correct. Even the good wing has a gap similar to the squared out area in the pict. There is also a ridge at the neck (red circle) and the top jaw/head really doesn’t have a believable connection/socket to the lower jaw neck (can’t see from the picts, but you can see a bit of the gap on the back with the other red circle). There is also a ridge around the torso. The front of this one I should be able to handle with no problems, but I will be challenged to get the scales to blend on the back (no picture of back).
Currently at my disposal: Magic Sculpt, standard milliput, green stuff, modeling paste, various squadron putties (I hate these), and plasters. Other than some roots with the Magic Sculpt I have never used any of the two part epoxides—and I believe I bought the milliput when I bought the dragon.
I won’t progress on the fast, but any help is appreciated.
-Mike

 

[kathrynloch]

Well, to get rid of the old epoxy you can try taking a pointed cotton swab with nail polish remover and start soaking it, then scrape it out with an xacto.

The Dawn Power Dissolver I use for stripping paint also loosens epoxy and super glue. Get a zip lock storage bag (the big ones) and put him inside, spray him good, concentrating on the joins. Let sit and check him every hour or so to see if the epoxy is coming loose. Respray as needed.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[Bloodhowl]

Found this on a R/C forum: "Heat is the best way to break it down, but you will need to get the epoxy up to around 250 degrees or more." You might try heating the joints with a heat gun and see if that loosens the epoxy, or put it in the oven and check it every few minutes to see if it comes loose.

For the scales you can make a texture stamp from the existing scales. This article should explain the process:

http://ceramicartsdaily.org/clay-to...ying-texture-to-ceramic-sculpture-or-pottery/

 

[moetle]

Your joints don't look bad. The real question is: are they pinned? If you have them pinned already then I would just take some green stuff or milliput or both and just fill the gaps and shape it like the model and not worry about trying to break it apart.

If you are determined to separate the model, I would just wrap it up in paper towels and work the joints apart slowly and gently with a couple pairs of pliers. I've done that in the past before and plan to do it on my Egrimm Von Horstmann model (dragon and rider). Once the joints are apart your will have to sand/scrape/file them back to cleanliness.

I have never tried using a heat gun on the joints. If you do be careful as hot metal bends, scratches, and breaks a lot easier then cold.

Moe

 

[KruleBear]

@Kath: is Power Desolver the same as Dan Power Clean dish soap? I looked when you'd mentioned this in the past and could not find Power Dissolver. Since I only really need to get one wing off the q-tip with nail polish remover may work.

@BloodHowl: neat article, may give it a try. I saw a site that sell stamps for making pavers, planks, etc..for bases. I might try the heat as a last resort, as I am liable to do something stupid while it is hot. I have heard that putting plastic mini's in the freezer allows you to pop crazy glue joints free...somehow doubt it will work on epoxied mini's, but may give it a try.

@motel: I share the concern with the heating and will keep an eye on it. If you look at the second pict, the angle just outside of the red box to the right of the wing is supposed to be flush with the body. I just looked at it and the joins on the top side of the wings look pretty decent. I am thinking I wanted the extreme upright look and was too lazy (or ignorant at the time) to open up the sockets for a good fit on the lower side. Oh, and I see what looks like JB Weld on the right wing used for gap filling...oh my . I may stare at it for another week...I am starting to think I can cut that lower corner off and try to blend it in.

I am probably going to want to thin the trailing edge if the wing membrane while I am at it to give the illusion of thinness. It is about 3mm thick in spots.

 

[kathrynloch]

@Kath: is Power Desolver the same as Dan Power Clean dish soap? I looked when you'd mentioned this in the past and could not find Power Dissolver. Since I only really need to get one wing off the q-tip with nail polish remover may work.

No - this is a trigger spray. I've never seen it at the grocery store, only at Walmart and places like that. Totally different critter. This stuff is great on both dishes and minis. lol!

 

[Einion]

My first question—any good suggestions for easily breaking the epoxy bond so I can refit the wing? (I had someone suggest carefully wrapping him in bubble wrap. Put in a box carefully with packing peanuts and take him to a gaming event—guaranteed to have the wings fall off in route J)

Hehe, that's a good one. I was going to suggest popping the whole thing in the freezer, but I'm not certain how much common freezer temps affect epoxy. It is worth a try, since if it does work the way you'd hope (like with superglue) it should make the joint snap apart very easily.

Since you have pretty sizable pieces to hold on to it may be worth taking the brute-force approach and seeing if you can loosen the problem wing by just wiggling it.

Currently at my disposal: Magic Sculpt, standard milliput, green stuff, modeling paste, various squadron putties (I hate these), and plasters.

Great - don't use those. They're probably the worst thing for this job anyway; in fact in nearly all circumstances one of the epoxy putties is a better bet.

MagicSculp would probably be the easiest material to use for this, since it has the easiest working profile. I'd recommend practicing a bit specifically on recreating the necessary textures here

Milliput's shelf life is pretty sucky so if it's anywhere near the age you think it is it's probably mostly gone anyway (don't toss though, keep for groundwork duties). It's a good putty, if you're used to using it, but it's hard to work with in many ways so it's definitely not the thing to try for this.

As for GS, well it's simply not the best gap-filler. However it is ideal for making your own texture stamps (because of the flexibility) so it's great that you have some.

@Kath: is Power Desolver the same as Dan Power Clean dish soap?

Active ingredient in Power Dissolver is probably the same as in Fairy Power Spray over on this side of the pond: caustic soda. So if you want to try this route oven cleaner (Easy Off) should do it.

Well, to get rid of the old epoxy you can try taking a pointed cotton swab with nail polish remover and start soaking it, then scrape it out with an xacto.

Epoxies are generally solvent-resistant. IME acetone won't do squat to epoxy. (And I'm presuming acetone's common stand-in in polish remover will be similar enough so again won't do anything.)

Einion

 

[freakinacage]

Your joints don't look bad. The real question is: are they pinned? If you have them pinned already then I would just take some green stuff or milliput or both and just fill the gaps and shape it like the model and not worry about trying to break it apart.

Yeah I'd go with that

 

[KruleBear]

Thanks guys, at this point I am waffling between putting him in the freezer and trying to manhandle the messed up wing off OR just blending it in. I think i am leaning toward freakinacages recommendation.

@Einion: thanks for the tips. I bought the MagicSculp several months back base on a recommendation you had in another thread, so I will start playing with it. If I understand correctly it is better to do multiple layers, so there is plenty of working time to "model" the epoxy. Should I wet or oil my sculpting tools or uses is to prevent sticking?

 

[Bloodhowl]

Thanks guys, at this point I am waffling between putting him in the freezer and trying to manhandle the messed up wing off OR just blending it in. I think i am leaning toward freakinacages recommendation.

@Einion: thanks for the tips. I bought the MagicSculp several months back base on a recommendation you had in another thread, so I will start playing with it. If I understand correctly it is better to do multiple layers, so there is plenty of working time to "model" the epoxy. Should I wet or oil my sculpting tools or uses is to prevent sticking?

I found these useful on Magic Sculpt:
http://kitkraft.biz/blog/?p=443
http://www.elgrecominiatures.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d55.html

 

[KruleBear]

I found these useful on Magic Sculpt:http://kitkraft.biz/blog/?p=443http://www.elgrecominiatures.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d55.html

Thanks. That kitkraft site definately helped. Will start playing with the epoxy when I get home next week.

 

[jason1974]

I have had great success in removing epoxy and super glue from metal models by using Furniture Stripper ( I use Cira 1850). Keep in mind this a very harsh chemical and will destroy paint on contact, your hands unless you ware gloves.

 

[KruleBear]

I have had great success in removing epoxy and super glue from metal models by using Furniture Stripper ( I use Cira 1850). Keep in mind this a very harsh chemical and will destroy paint on contact, your hands unless you ware gloves.

Thanks Jason, I will have to see what types of stripper I have in the shop. The previous owner ran a cabinet shop in it with plenty of left over chemicals.

 

[Einion]

@Einion: thanks for the tips. I bought the MagicSculp several months back base on a recommendation you had in another thread, so I will start playing with it.

:good:

If I understand correctly it is better to do multiple layers, so there is plenty of working time to "model" the epoxy.

Where you need to build something in sequential steps yes, but filling like this may not be one of those. I'd aim to fill and texture as much of a single joint as you can in one go, although the alternative would be to partly fill the join, let that set and then use a thin skin of fresh putty just for the final texture.

If you want to work one section at a time to completion, once you have the putty fully mixed you can start pushing it into the joint immediately, while it's still warm and very soft. Once you've packed the gap (slightly overfill) then you can put the model aside for a while - at least 10 minutes but as much as 3/4 of an hour - to allow the MS to stiffen up a bit, which improves its working characteristics. Total working time is in excess of two hours so you'll still have plenty of time if you leave it for the full 45 mins, or even longer.

Should I wet or oil my sculpting tools or uses is to prevent sticking?

If you have to yes, but you shouldn't have to do that much because MS isn't overly sticky (does depend on what type of tools you're using and their surface finish). I'd personally recommend you avoid using oil for a couple of reasons but by all means wet your tools, just a little, if you find the need. I also want to plug talc which is well worth trying instead of or alongside water or saliva*; you'll see the relative advantages pretty quickly once you try them.

*Not by wetting the tools in your mouth!

Einion