GD Chicago 09

[crazyboyae1]

here is the thing, yes its cheating and its wrong. the right actions are bein taken.

but everybody is saying, \"its not fair to the people who actualy worked hard!\"
do you think the guy who painted the minis didn\'t work hard?

why does it matter to the other people in the competition who enters the minis? may the best mini win, it doesn\'t matter who the person is!

yes the rules state a certain thing and they should be followed, but obviously the painter knew about it and just wanted somebody to enter for him!

so at the end of the day if nobody knew about him entering it, a mini is a mini and if its good it doesnt matter who painted it.

the only things i consider serious cheating is...
team efforts
and bribing judges.

obiously this is cheating becuase its against the rules, and it is aainst the spiret of the commetition, but the mini is gonna be the same no matter who enters it!

... my thoughts

 

[Avelorn]

@Crazyboy: I understand what you are saying. BUT if all top painters could send their minis to all competitions it would be a very very different competition. The edge is that you do not know what you are competing against. How many would enter if it was like that?

 

[crazyboyae1]

yeah i understand what you mean,

its just that everybody is saying its not fair to the person who actually worked hard!

and obviously the person who painted the minis worked hard, and he knew so...

But I would like to see a competition where all the top painters entered! it would be fun, and you would see some amazing stuff!

 

[Joek]

I personally wouldn\'t have any issue with folk entering the competition by proxy - if the rules allowed it. I want to see the best there is, and if someone just couldn\'t make it for the day, but had a wonderful figure they wanted to enter, that would be fine (if I ruled the world...).

However, I cannot see how entering someone else\'s model in one\'s own name being anything other than cheating of the highest order, and should be punishable by a complete banning of said individual. How dare anyone take the plaudits from someone else\'s work?

 

[Talonicus]

I think the biggest problem from my own perspective is that it breaks the rules.

Maybe its an English thing but I like rules to be followed.

It states your own work and handed in by yourself. Its black and white with no grey areas, so why oh why do people keep breaking the rules?

If the comp had proxy submissions, great I would be all for it. Having the best of the best in a comp would be only more of an incentive.

But GD isn\'t like that, the rules are strict for GW\'s reasons, stick to them.
Simples

 

[Ritual]

In many historical competitions (which nowadays usually have fantasy/sci-fi categories as well) both team efforts and entering by proxy is allowed. In general I have nothing against that. But, usually these competitions are using the open system, which means that no one will see their chances lessening by this (except for best-of-show and similar awards that are only given to a specific entry).

But of course, if the rules for a certain contest forbids entering by proxy or team efforts, it is forbidden and you risk being disqualified if you get caught.

However, entering someone elses work IN YOUR OWN NAME is always cheating. There are no excuses!

 

[Begbie]

why does it matter to the other people in the competition who enters the minis? may the best mini win, it doesn\'t matter who the person is!

Because that\'s an aspect of the Games Day competitions. It\'s GW\'s perogative to include this in their rules.

In a very tenuous parallel, if you have a world-record breaking sprinter, they don\'t automatically get to use their record-breaking time at the Olympics. That would be ridiculous, right? They actually have to participate in that race on that day. As we say here in the US, \"any given Sunday.\"

Like I said, it\'s tenuous, but similarly, GW makes participation by the artist an integral part of their competition. If you can\'t participate there, then you can find a number of other venues to ship your models to. The rules are very clear and no one, certainly, is forcing anyone.

Dave

 

[Artorius1013]

Cheating at Gamesday

Alright, I guess it\'s time that I chime in due to the fact that I am a guy, who after 13 years of collecting and commisioning others to paint for me, has an opinion that needs to be heard. I have been privy to this website for a couple of years and am always fascinated by the skill level of some of the true artisans of this craft. Anybody that does not recognize you guys as true masters of a beautiful genre has more issues than even Freud could tackle! That being said, my most recent commisions were at Gamesday Chicago being presented by, get this, THE ACTUAL ARTIST THAT PAINTED THEM!!! Listen, I know there are people out there that are just plain scurvey, I am aware that as long as these works of art are available to talentless masses like myself, there will be cheaters. For those of you that wish to portray yourselves as Michelangelo\'s of the mini...one piece of advice: knock it the **ck off! You know what I did when the master-craftsmen gracious enough to paint for me told me that he was going to Gamesday was? I told him to take the commisions he did for me and go and win!! Which he did! (i.e. Haldir -- LOTR single mini). I, as a solicitor of great artists like most of you here on CMON, do not want a bad name as one who knows his shortcomings, and just wants to have very nice minis. I pay for the work and the work alone. Not the right to take such works and pawn them off as my own. So, to those of you gracious enough to paint for guys like me, I give you a loud and rauccous clap and a heartfelt \"Thank you\" from the bottom of my heart. Not all of us are devious, not all of us want your souls, We just want to bask in the beauty of an art we know we could not do... Your hands are truly blessed and that\'s the way you were made. Me, I was made to boogy!!! To all the artists that have worked for me or that I am lucky enough to have your works...Elly3438, Mr. Holly, Mr. Linne, MAS studios, Chest of Colors, and a few others... THANK YOU! You will never see me on a podium masquarading as you. Your work is far too special for that. To those that do stand on the podium to claim what is not rightfully yours; all I can say is this....KARMA.
Thanks for your guys time in reading this, I will get off my soapbox and wait another 13 years or so to write something...

 

[Aliengod3]

Originally posted by AvelornI think a small group of enthusiast that frequently surf coolminiornot, ebay and other sites and blogs that can look through the miniatures would discover most frauds.

I agree with this. I am pretty good at picking out certain peoples style so if I were at a Demon competition and recognized someones style and notice that the person receiving the trophy was not the correct person I would definitely speak up.

Official member of the \"Golden Demon Police Force\"

Also the idea behind the golden demon competition is that it gives PAINTERS the opportunity to showcase their works in hopes of winning a trophy, NOT BUYERS. Anyone who enters a mini that they paid for is not doing any work except forking over the money to have someone else paint their minis. They do not have the right to enter these minis because they did not paint them! This is like people who win Best Painted Army at tournaments who do not deserve it because they paid someone who can paint to paint their army for them. IT IS WRONG and IMMORAL!

Yes, may the best mini win. As long as the minis being entered are painted by the people who are entering them!

@ Artorius: Good show for allowing the artist to enter the minis

 

[Minicreatures]

Wow. The dwarf in me is completely disgusted. What is wrong with that guy Marc that he thinks this would be a fine thing to do? Totally shady! Crap like this makes me want to chop off his hands. So he has to work next time to click his paypal button. I really can\'t believe this was a \'whoops\' scenario. As for the actual painter, awesome work, but enter it under your own name eh, have some pride as a craftsman and respect for your fellow painters. This kind of idiocy sets a bad precedent and reflects badly.


Good gravy.

 

[Ritual]

@Artorius
No one will blame you for buying others stuff (many people here make a living out of painting miniatures, and plenty of us others, including myself, have sold the occasional mini or two). And, no one will blame you for taking your bought minis to Games Day and let the artist who painted them for you compete with them. That\'s a great thing to do! You haven\'t broken any rules, and you\'ve enabled others to see some great minis. :beer:

 

[domus]

Originally posted by MinicreaturesWhat is wrong with that guy Marc that he thinks this would be a fine thing to do?

IMHO the painter is just as much at fault for immediately editing his titles and \"seizing the glory of the golds\", even if the cheating was not premeditated between the collector and painter.

The gal whose models were entered from Baltimore handled this situation with great care and respect. Too bad this painter could not have done the same.

Is this just a US thing or does this happen in other countries?

 

[the Infadel]

Originally posted by Avelorn
@The infadel: Yes and no. You are correct that more elaborate frauds are hard to discover but most of the people that perennially win deamons and even more those that both have the capability of winning deamons and are selling miniatures, are pretty well known. I think a small group of enthusiast that frequently surf coolminiornot, ebay and other sites and blogs that can look through the miniatures would discover most frauds.

so you are suggesting that there are a group of internet miniature painter professional identifiers that with their great and all knowing wisdom of people and their painting skills should be somehow collected by Games Workshop and sat behind each games day golden demon entry table and make a judgment call as to weather a certain person actually painted the entry in hand? good luck.
as has been said earlier, they only have so much time to do the actual judging, let alone identify the truth behind the paint.
so you ban this guy. big deal. next year a different guy does it.

 

[Minicreatures]

I agree with you Domus, the painter is certainly just as much to blame as the buyer.
It\'s also pretty galling that some people would expect this sort of thing to happen... and say big deal. It\'s disgusting behavior and should be called out when it\'s caught.

What is the purpose then of having a contest of SKILL if you can just go and buy the top honor? When someone buys his way to the top it cheapens the entire affair for the people whom the contest was for. I don\'t understand the motivation of that guy at all... Yes it\'s an award that means something for painters. If he was that hot to trot for a prize, he could skill up and paint something himself and be proud of his accomplishment, instead of slapping everyone else in the face who entered honestly. I\'m glad Games Workshop is working to amend the situation.

 

[Aliengod3]

All I know is that if I were at a Golden Demon competition and I saw a mini that I painted as a commission or sold on ebay and it was one of the minis in the case waiting to be considered for a trophy I would be furious! I do not like the thought of someone else claiming my work as their own nor would I appreciate it if someone entered it under my name. To me that is plagiarism. Last time I checked plagiarism was a crime. If I were in school and I took someone else\'s work and claimed it as my own I would be expelled...

 

[the Infadel]

well, i didn\'t say \"big deal\" that it would happen again. i said \"big deal\" that he would be banned from competing next time.
wasn\'t it said that he was there with other people? why wouldn\'t he just have one of them enter it?
and this has happened before, so why wouldn\'t it happen again?
my point isn\'t that it doesn\'t suck, my point is that you have no control over it. people that are asses will be an ass with more rules or not.

 

[davetaylor]

Originally posted by Ritual
@Artorius
No one will blame you for buying others stuff (many people here make a living out of painting miniatures, and plenty of us others, including myself, have sold the occasional mini or two). And, no one will blame you for taking your bought minis to Games Day and let the artist who painted them for you compete with them. That\'s a great thing to do! You haven\'t broken any rules, and you\'ve enabled others to see some great minis. :beer:

Agreed absolutely.

I don\'t think anyone in this thread is saying that commission painting is bad or that commission painters or customers are evil. Far from it.

Claiming a commissioned piece was painted by you if it wasn\'t is wrong. Having your painted models entered by someone else in your name is, in this case, against the rules.

Loaning a commissioned piece back to the artist to enter in Golden Demon is great!

Artorius, I\'m very sorry that this thread may have made you feel that people think your are wrong for buying great works of art. It certainly wasn\'t my intention to suggest that at all.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Neil H]

I have passed back two commissioned figures painted by both Matt Parkes and Jakob Nielsen for entry into GD and both won Demon\'s :beer:

So both parties came out happy!

However entering under your own name is a total no-no!!

Neil

 

[Mantra]

I agree whole heartedly with Nigel, I am totally against entries done by multiple artists i.e. modelled by one person then painted by another (this has happened a few times in UK GD - you know who you are!), this is not in the spirit of the competition, the rules clearly state that the work should be your own. The rules also say that each piece should be on a certain size base - how come entrants/winners still get away with this breach of the rules?
As for people entering other peoples work as there own, cut their arms off and beat them with the soggy end! OR feed them to Nigel...

 

[monkeyboy30672]

I can\'t even BEGIN to iterate how disgusted I am at this. But, also, how appreciative I am for the people who point out infractions of this nature. Since I have been the one taking the official photos of all the US winners for the past 7 years (on and off), I can\'t help but take this a little personally. I want to scream and yell and completely vent my frustration at these cheaters. I hate this with a passion. I wouldn\'t mind having people check out every single miniature and every entrant that comes through, completely FBI style! They just don\'t have the manpower to do it, so they have to go on faith. It\'s an utter shame that people try to take advantage of that good nature. Granted, the misdeeds are revealed by sharp, well-versed individuals like yourselves, and I can\'t possibly express enough gratitude for all your help in that respect. Now if we could just make it a capital offense. I\'m pretty proficient with a Mongolian horse bow...

Chicago has always been one of my favorite GDs to photograph. The competition, since its beginnings in 2002, has been some of the toughest I\'ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to photograph. And the entrants themselves are so great, too! It just saddens me so much to see this kind of unethical practice happening with greater frequency. For certain, the people caught cheating with malintent will be banned for life from entering Games Days again. I just wish they could bring them on stage in front of all the other Golden Demon participants and announce their infraction. Then let the crowd handle them. lol

Just my 2 cents. I had a GREAT time in Chicago, and besides this frustration, the competition was one of the most fun and exciting I\'ve ever been a part of! I didn\'t even get a head wound this year!

--Dirty.