Gencon painting competition complaints?

[Dragonsreach]

Just read through the whole of this thread, interesting read as well. (Thanks Squidders)

My belated 2 pence worth:
I enter competitions, whether it\'s in the local store, or a bigger event such as Conflict, Gamesday or Salute. And I aim to get at the very least passing nod at my painting. Now I don\'t mind not winning as that allways gives me the encouragement/push to improve.
Now I\'ve been entering Golden Deamon since 1995 and I\'ve amassed something like 17 finalist certificates.
Doesn\'t bother me that I haven\'t won, just means that I have to work harder each year. And to be honest the quality has improved every year so that my standard to aim for has to increase exponentially, and that I\'m greatful for.
Ok So I\'m competing against top quality painters like Jakob Neilsen or Marike, and the problem there is.................None. These are the people who set the standards that I want to achieve, match and oneday surpass.

Now this year at Salute I got close to achieving one of my aims and gained a Second place. (My apologies to anyone who was standing near me at the anouncements...Didn\'t intend to deafen anyone ) Doesn\'t mean I\'m going to sit back on my Ar*e and do nothing. Quite the reverse in fact, it means that I\'m going to have to work harder to not only try to gain a second place again but to push even harder to get a Shot at First.

People who want to break competitions down into categories based on \"Level of Ability\" are diluting the concept of the competition. Lets be honest Competition painting is about improving skills in order to win, not about matching abilities. If you don\'t have a need to push the envelope of your abilities then you shouldn\'t be entering competitions.
To me the only time someone has a good reason to whinge about not winning a competition is if there is a suspicion that the competition was rigged or biased in a particular persons favour.

 

[Avelorn]

Imagine the competition that only gives out 1 award, for the best painted miniature on earth. That should be the toughest competition around. From many people\'s reasoning (in absurdum of course) that would be the ultimate competition and would probably attract a lot of the \"top dogs\". Everybody except the winner would need to improve their skill and work harder for next year. But really the competition would only involve a dozen or so pieces and as with American Idol for example there would be a lot of fillers and some might ask (not only the entrants) - what are they doing there in the first place? Why do you enter such a high prestige competition? Now that would be a competition for the few and not for the many.

What if I\'m looking for broadening the competition? For every placement or category you add to the list, more miniatures will actually be a part of the competition itself and be considered for awards. Same if you divide the competition into different skill-categories. More people will see their progress since last year and more people will compete against each other (with an open system of course you only compete against yourself). Another way that has a similar effect is honorable mentions, and taking as much pictures as possible so that many entrants will able to showcase their efforts to the world. There will of course be no perfect system.. but as always there can be better and worse ones. As Vincent added, everybody can\'t expect an award. No.. but I think that it\'s better that several people instead of just a few can at least see the possibility of their work getting some attention.

However there is of course problems with every system as well as some of you have pointed out. But are the problems greater then the possible gain? Can these problems be solved, is there a good way of making a compromise without making the prestige of the competition drop?

I\'m not in necessary even for changing the rules of this specific competition on Gencon. I\'m only against not seeing it is a problem that many feel left out. I\'d love to see that as many people as possible get stimulated by events like this and therefor if there is a way of changing it in that direction I would gladly welcome it. I am competitive, but I also see these things as a celebration of our hobby and therefor need to try to incorporate as many people as possible. And that means neither banning of pros or making it a competition for an elite number of people.. or giving everyone an award for that matter as that would be counter productive.. and it\'s not that fun to win a paper clip as that would probably be the price! lol

And as I final note. My mind works much like Rodniks or Dragonsreach or many other that have expressed their opinion. I get very motivated with competing against the best. But some only get daunted and I can understand that. And if \"cliques\" are formed that stop listening and paying attention to what other people have to say (from both sides), the community aspect of this hobby might get lessened. And for me that is the most important part, more important that awards and competitions.

 

[Ritual]

@Sven
Have you read the thread at the GenCon forum that Squidders linked to? There you will find quite a bit of information about the GenCon competition provided by the people who organise it. They explain what they do to make it as broad and appealing to as many people as possible and from what I can tell they are doing a really good job of it. The fact that the number of entrants have increased each year also indicates that. There are factors that limit what they can do with the competition without diluting it. It seems that if there are some who really take these issues seriously it is them.

 

[KatieG]

Originally posted by EricJ
The only thing I even vaguely disagree with at gencon is allowing more than 1 entry per category, but ultimately I don\'t see that as a big deal either really.

That\'s largely to allow more freedom to people who want to enter more manufacturer\'s categories. It\'s hard to compete for multiple manufacturers\' awards when you can only enter one mini per category. One change the judges/organizers were discussing was still allowing two entries per category, but only allowing the highest award per person to stick (so this year, Marike would have only taken 1st in Single, not first and second). Reaction to this possible change has been mixed, close to 50/50 so far.

 

[EricJ]

Originally posted by KatieG

Originally posted by EricJ
The only thing I even vaguely disagree with at gencon is allowing more than 1 entry per category, but ultimately I don\'t see that as a big deal either really.

That\'s largely to allow more freedom to people who want to enter more manufacturer\'s categories. It\'s hard to compete for multiple manufacturers\' awards when you can only enter one mini per category. One change the judges/organizers were discussing was still allowing two entries per category, but only allowing the highest award per person to stick (so this year, Marike would have only taken 1st in Single, not first and second). Reaction to this possible change has been mixed, close to 50/50 so far.

I think that would be a good solution

 

[Cerridwyn1st]

Where the Winers Are

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design

By the way where are these cry baby threads..I love to go and leave a \"constructive\" comment or two

Gen Con Forum: Only Instructors....
There ya go, Jeff... sic `em.

Mel

 

[Cerridwyn1st]

Originally posted by EricJ

Originally posted by KatieG

Originally posted by EricJ
The only thing I even vaguely disagree with at gencon is allowing more than 1 entry per category, but ultimately I don\'t see that as a big deal either really.

That\'s largely to allow more freedom to people who want to enter more manufacturer\'s categories. It\'s hard to compete for multiple manufacturers\' awards when you can only enter one mini per category. One change the judges/organizers were discussing was still allowing two entries per category, but only allowing the highest award per person to stick (so this year, Marike would have only taken 1st in Single, not first and second). Reaction to this possible change has been mixed, close to 50/50 so far.

I think that would be a good solution

I think limiting a person to one win per category is a terrible idea. Just means that instead of putting two entries in one category, people will enter multiple categories, making them tougher as well.

It used to be Diorama was one of the easier catagories but that changed when Sue put in a really awesome Dark Sword diorama about three years ago. It is almost as tough as Single now.

Limiting to one award per category or one entry per category would mean ALL the categories would become equally tough, instead of Single being really tough, Diorama being almost as hard and the rest with varying degrees of difficulty.

If the special Dragon award becomes permanent I can see Large Figure becoming a tough category as well.

 

[AinuLainour]

Originally posted by SaxonAngel
..my mediocre figure AND I \'ve gotten the kick in the ass to try and bring my skills up to a higher level.

That was mediocore? :drool:

I\'ve read the whole thread, and don\'t have much to add. I did have an observation, though. At Canada\'s Golden Demon, there was a figure that didn\'t place in Warhammer Single, but the painter took it down to Chicago, where it won gold. By no means, in anyone\'s opinion (mostly members from Team Toronto) was Warhammer Single an easy category to place in at Chicago, but it was the choice of the judges, again. So don\'t get down if your model doesn\'t place at ____con/day, just keep improving and always enter it again somewhere else, just to be sure..

 

[Cerridwyn1st]

Don\'t really need any changes...

I\'ve read the posts on both the Gen Con forum and here on CMoN. It appears that two or three people on the Gen Con forum who don\'t like getting beaten are asking that the system be changed. On CMoN, which represents a broader group of painters, the consensus seems to be that the contest is OK as it is.

 

[EricJ]

Originally posted by Cerridwyn1st

Limiting to one award per category or one entry per category would mean ALL the categories would become equally tough

That\'s a bad thing how? That was sort of my point really, and is in line with this thread as well: that most people relish the competition and are not looking for cheep awards. I just think it\'s a bit odd allowing multiple entries per category and really the only competition we see it in (that has a 1st/2nd/3rd, we see it in historical where awards are much more fluid).

Besides the idea mentioned doesn\'t even stop them from entering multiple times in one category, it\'s just a little incentive to have them branch into others...which as a person viewing the competition, means more top pieces throughout.

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by EricJ

Originally posted by Cerridwyn1st

Limiting to one award per category or one entry per category would mean ALL the categories would become equally tough

That\'s a bad thing how? That was sort of my point really, and is in line with this thread as well: that most people relish the competition and are not looking for cheep awards. I just think it\'s a bit odd allowing multiple entries per category and really the only competition we see it in (that has a 1st/2nd/3rd, we see it in historical where awards are much more fluid).

Besides the idea mentioned doesn\'t even stop them from entering multiple times in one category, it\'s just a little incentive to have them branch into others...which as a person viewing the competition, means more top pieces throughout.

Yeah I was having a hard time figuring that one out too to the point I couldn\'t think of anything to post..but YES.. we DO wan\'t all thecategories in the Gen Con painting contest to be as competative as the next..we DON\'T want to give out any easy awards. Thats just silly.

As for the allowing of multiple entries per category Ive always been against that also but it was Gen Cons idea.. to increase the amount of entries to make the contest look fuller and to increase the revenue that it brings in. The contest is self funding..as in the money that comes in via entries helps pay the expenses of running it like the awards and the prize money. In fact the contest probably looses money but Gen Con feels its an important part of the convention.

Is there an ultimate answer to the few complainers to its fairness, not really because no matter what we do to improve it..someone will find fault with something.

 

[darthfoley]

I demand an award for being the best painter in my house.

Mainly cause my wife and cats haven\'t tried yet.

lol :beer:

 

[Cerridwyn1st]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge DesignIs there an ultimate answer to the few complainers to its fairness, not really because no matter what we do to improve it..someone will find fault with something.

As DR would say, \"Spot on\". The complainers don\'t really want things to be fair. The competition is fair. What they want is for the competition to be dumb-down so they have a chance to win. That\'s not acceptable.

The \"fairness\" argument has been made before. Additional awards and random SWAG have been added. The ability to post online for critique was made available this year. These changes increase the opportunity for people to win awards and to get assistance before the competition. It these changes aren\'t enough, I don\'t see that \"improvements\" like limiting awards will be \"enough\" either.

 

[squidders]

I just got an e-mail from Marike Reimer with some photos of the Jade mini she painted for GenCon.

OH... MY... GOD!!!!!

I can only imagine that the other category winners were as good and that the best in show diorama was Derek Zoolander good looking!

If I was highly strung with shakey self confidence, I would whinge about the competition being too stiff lol

 

[Cerridwyn1st]

Originally posted by squidders
I just got an e-mail from Marike Reimer with some photos of the Jade mini she painted for GenCon.

OH... MY... GOD!!!!!

I can only imagine that the other category winners were as good and that the best in show diorama was Derek Zoolander good looking!

If I was highly strung with shakey self confidence, I would whinge about the competition being too stiff lol

Dude, you think the pix were great, you should have seen it in person. Marike let me hold it before she put it in the contest.

 

[squidders]

Funny you should say that... I\'m going to be holding it in about 2 weeks lol

not that i\'m pleased about this you understand

I\'ve been trying to find good photos of the other winners and especially the best in show but no dice

 

[Wren]

These certainly don\'t all qualify as good photos, but some of them you can get a good idea of the artistry behind the minis. I don\'t have everything, I spaced on the single winners and some had already been removed from the case. Mengu takes pictures of the minis that place and I expect they\'ll get posted on Gen Con\'s site or on Electric Ocean before too long.

Some Gen Con mini comp pics

 

[squidders]

Hey, thanks for that Wren... the photos do indeed give a very good idea of the very high standard of painting.

 

[digbaddy72]

One idea for \"skill\" division

I used to participate in a woodworkers convention/show. Their categories were broken down by # of wins in a category. There was novice, intermediate, expert, and master class. If you won first place in novice for x years then you were moved to intermediate. If you won x years in intermediate then you were moved to expert and so on. For the few years I was in, it seemed to work well.

Think about it. The more years you work at a hobby, the better you get at the more difficult techniques (osl, nmm, senmm, etc). I think it would be pretty straight forward as far as who goes into what categories. Then you would have pieces that incorporate nmm going up against other nmm pieces. It wouldn\'t be based on age. I\'ve seen some young blood pieces at GD\'s that could easily make first cut in the regular categories!

I personally like going up against some of the biggest names in the hobby. When I don\'t place, I like to pick the judges brains as to what it was that prevented me from placing. I take that criticism back to my studio and work on it. I try to incorporate the suggestions into my next piece, thus getting better.

Bottom line, without losers, there are no winners.:beer:

 

[KatieG]

By the way guys, pictures are now available here:

http://www.electricocean.com/67/index.php?name=coppermine&cat=5

Enjoy!