Germany moves to outlaw paintball

[Farin]

@Crackpot: oay, okay, i cooled down

it´s just that it makes me angry when someone usues lies and populism when we have real problems

@amazon warrior:

have´t been to Neuschwanstein yet, but i ´m planning on it. if you´re ever in the berlin area make sure to pay Sans Soucie a visit. The kings of prussia really knew how to be decadent with style

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by Aidan K
Hmmmm, to me it almost seems as if tightening controls on guns to a really high level, whilst allowing paintball for those that want it would be more productive. Giving people a generally safe, controlled outlet for aggression etc is probably safer in the long run than completely eliminating such outlets i would have thought???

agreed

 

[airhead]

Originally posted by Farin
In fact we have a \"fail save\" build in to our constitution:
If someone in germany is trying to remove democracy and errect something like a fourth reich, every citizen has the right do resist - even with violence

With what? They\'ve taken away all your tools of resistance...

 

[Farin]

@airhead: and now they take everything else away lol

No seriously, i already asked myself if one of you guys would made that point. I have asked myself exactly the same question. Like the vast majority here i´m for gun control *, but of cause you´re right without guns, resisting a illegal govermnet is kind of tricky - my solution would be to take up Mahatma Ghandi´s Ideas of nonviolent resistance - it seems like the best form of resistance imho


* i know how important gunownership for many americans is and will not open an disscusion about the pros and cons of the right to wear arms - i can life with the fact that we have different points of views and still respect you

 

[Aidan K]

Remember, you\'ve got the right to bear arms!

What? Oh...

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Originally posted by Aidan K
Remember, you\'ve got the right to bear arms!

What? Oh...

I always thought that was supposed to be the right to bare arms, because it was really hot on the day it was written, and it wasn\'t considered proper to roll up your sleeves, back then.

 

[dbiggied]

Originally posted by Shadzar
Guess there goes the autoban, as well as driving in Germany, cause that causes los of life, violent behavior, and is dangerous. Aslo are the following:

Feeding yourself with sharp objects such as forks, electricity, the internet, interacting with other people, drinking, smoking, money.....

and, apparently...fire!

From newsoftheweird.com...
\"BBC producers, wielding a \"telephone-book-size\" set of safety precautions while making a recent adventure documentary, ordered Sir Robin Knox-Johnston (the first person to sail single-handedly and nonstop around the world) not to light a portable stove unless a \"safety advisor\" supervised. [Daily Mail, 4-18-09]\"

Back to the subject of mass shootings... maybe if we didn\'t make such a big media circus out of them, there would be fewer of them...bear with me here...

Look at the guy that killed all those people at VA Tech in the US... (.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre)
...the kid wrote papers and recorded videos beforehand...his \"manifesto\", then went and shot 32 people, then himself.

Now, take some young, impressionable, maybe mentally ill kids that have been picked on, ignored, passed over for everything, and generally \"discarded\" their whole lives...and sit them down in front of the t.v. to watch hours and hours of news coverage of this killer. They see his name in 50 point type, they see the media poring over every inch of his life, studying his every move, they see every second of video and read every word of his \"manifesto\"...

Now what you have is a group of kids who start to think that they are not so different from him. They start to identify with this killer. They start to marvel at the sheer volume of attention that this person gets. This guy that no one really noticed or paid attention to, is now EVERYWHERE. Maybe...just maybe...they start to think that if they did something similar, they might finally get noticed too...

Not saying I\'m trying to pass the blame on to the media, mind you...he killed 32 people...for that his own death was too quick and painless...I\'m just saying, think back and tell me if you didn\'t know one guy in high school that would eat that media story up...and even identify with the killer...

Just a thought

 

[ScottRadom]

I haven\'t been folowwin gthe thread much. Banning paintball is a stupid knee jerk reaction to an awful tragedy. These things happen though.

But just to comment on the above post regarding media sensationalizing these kind of mass shootings as giving fuel to potentially bring about more of these same type of events to the disenfranchised members of our society. That undoubtedly will and has happened. I think you\'re accurate in your assesment of the truly desperate who feel they are without a voice realizing that there is a way to get the world to \"listen\" to them through their horrific acts. How else could 9/11 happen if not for the fact that it was known that the world would get the message?

But maybe, just maybe, media coaverage of these kind of things will help the other side of society identify and possibly reach out and help the people who are just starting to head down a dark path? Maybe it\'s possible that for every Columbine that makes the news a couple more are prevented because a teacher, a parent, a sibling, or just a friend starts to look at the potential time bomb ticking behind the eyes of the person that is starting to feel this way?

I am not a fan of the media most days. I feel that with about 10-15 different major news networks all competing for an audience that the media tends to manufacture as many of their own events as they can. It sickens me that I even know who Paris Hilton is. Even more so that I spent about an hour and a half downloading a certain night vision video of her because I was just so damn curious! Agh, they really got to me there!

With actual news, events that have made a profound effect on our global community, I often want to know. I want to know the what, when, where, why and how of the thing. An event such as a school shooting needs to be explored, so we can find out at best how to prevent it from happeneing again, and at the least to help us learn how to pick up the pieces after something similar happens again.

Though I could be talking out of my ass here.

 

[Farin]

@scott

i agree with everything you wrote. Of cause you need competition, the las thing we can allow is that someone get´s the news monopoly. If you wanna know what that´s like just take a look at italy

btw: So, You saw this certain video too,eh

 

[airhead]

Originally posted by Aidan K
Remember, you\'ve got the right to bear arms!

And I thought we had the right to arm bears:

 

[alextheartist]

Like all situations simelarto this its the good people who follow the rules which are punished...


Also.. whoever said that the AK47 is heavy for an assult rifle, its actually very, very light compared to say the SA80 or the M16 varients..

 

[Torn blue sky]

Originally posted by alextheartist
Also.. whoever said that the AK47 is heavy for an assult rifle, its actually very, very light compared to say the SA80 or the M16 varients..

The SA80 A2 and M16 Are made with plastic in their construct though, which is lighter than the wooden stock and grip of an AK47.
The Ak47 also fires a 7.62 round. Big bullet which gives a fair bit of recoil. On a scale, the British GPMG (General perpose machine gun) Also uses this round.

The SA80 and M16 variants fire a standard NATO 5.56 round.

So They were right in saying an AK47 is much more dificult to fire

A little off topic, but my two cents on that particular point.

 

[alextheartist]

Ah yes, firing quick sucession you cant really hit anything, but up close you will tear someone to shreads, unlike the SA80 which, although is much more accurate over distance, just doesnt have the same body shredding ability

 

[Torn blue sky]

Perhaps not outright, but it was designed to \"Bullpup\" spec making it ideal for more accurate fire at short range and close assault breaches too. If I had to put the boot in a door and storm a mudhut somewhere, i\'d much rather have an SA80 A2 and fixed bayonet than an AK47.

ED; I would also actually argue the AK47 is more accurate at single shot far range. It also outranges an SA80. Afghan snipers often use this weapon.

 

[Einion]

Not to come across as the resident gun nut... but since I probably am, anyway...

Originally posted by alextheartist
Also.. whoever said that the AK47 is heavy for an assult rifle, its actually very, very light compared to say the SA80 or the M16 varients..

Er, what? It\'s heavy as far as assault rifles go, 4.3kg unloaded. SA80 is 3.82 kg (without sight) and 3.something for the M16A2.

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
The Ak47 also fires a 7.62 round. Big bullet which gives a fair bit of recoil. On a scale, the British GPMG (General perpose machine gun) Also uses this round.

Very different!

The Soviet one is an archetypal assault-rifle round (7.62x39) the NATO round on the other hand is basically a full-power rifle round (7.62x51).

A pic shows this better than words, see here; second from left and second from right respectively.

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
If I had to put the boot in a door and storm a mudhut somewhere, i\'d much rather have an SA80 A2 and fixed bayonet than an AK47.

What about if there were a spec of dust in the air? lol

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
ED; I would also actually argue the AK47 is more accurate at single shot far range. It also outranges an SA80. Afghan snipers often use this weapon.

Okay, point 1, you\'d be wrong.

Outright or effective range?

As for snipers, really? Why would a sniper use an AK47 when they have access to Dragunovs?

Einion

 

[Torn blue sky]

Originally posted by Einion
Not to come across as the resident gun nut... but since I probably am, anyway...

Originally posted by alextheartist
Also.. whoever said that the AK47 is heavy for an assult rifle, its actually very, very light compared to say the SA80 or the M16 varients..

Er, what? It\'s heavy as far as assault rifles go, 4.3kg unloaded. SA80 is 3.82 kg (without sight) and 3.something for the M16A2.

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
The Ak47 also fires a 7.62 round. Big bullet which gives a fair bit of recoil. On a scale, the British GPMG (General perpose machine gun) Also uses this round.

Very different!

The Soviet one is an archetypal assault-rifle round (7.62x39) the NATO round on the other hand is basically a full-power rifle round (7.62x51).

A pic shows this better than words, see here; second from left and second from right respectively.

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
If I had to put the boot in a door and storm a mudhut somewhere, i\'d much rather have an SA80 A2 and fixed bayonet than an AK47.

What about if there were a spec of dust in the air? lol

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
ED; I would also actually argue the AK47 is more accurate at single shot far range. It also outranges an SA80. Afghan snipers often use this weapon.

Okay, point 1, you\'d be wrong.

Outright or effective range?

As for snipers, really? Why would a sniper use an AK47 when they have access to Dragunovs?

Einion

Point 1. My bad (but it\'s still a bloody big bullet). Standard NATO for small arms is 5.56 though so I was halfway there lol

Point 2. The SA80 has come a looong way! Yes, it WAS an unreliable peice of crap, and if i\'d detected dust i\'d be bricking it going into any contact! But the new SA80 (A2) is a solid reliable good bit of kit

Point 3. I could say both! (in a sense). The 7.62 will travel further, but in the hands of these guys \"effective range\" is when they can still put a hole in you through any little trick! If anything I could say that the Taliban are extremely good shots. When I remarked this to the old man he told me they were exactly the same when he was soldiering on in the Radfan in Aden back in the 60\'s!
The reason they often use an AK47 for a sniper rifle is because they have so bloody many of them, and they\'re good with them. Granted they DO have access to the Dragunov, but when one isn\'t handy they don\'t shirk on improvisation.

 

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by dbiggied
and, apparently...fire!

Yeah the next thing you know some gaming related company will stop selling PDFs of their popular game in a knee jerk reaction with interest to stop internet piracy after the RIAA has already given up with a LOT more power to try to fight it.

 

[dbiggied]

Just to throw my two cents in on this one...

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
ED; I would also actually argue the AK47 is more accurate at single shot far range. It also outranges an SA80. Afghan snipers often use this weapon.

Okay, point 1, you\'d be wrong.

Outright or effective range?

As for snipers, really? Why would a sniper use an AK47 when they have access to Dragunovs?

Einion

The record for the longest confirmed sniper kill is by a Canadian Light Infantry sniper using a McMillan TAC-50 (2,430 meters).

The record before that is Carlos Hancock who, during Vietnam, plugged a guy from 2,146 meters using a Browning .50 cal machine gun modified to fire single shots and fitted with a scope.

AK-47...Pfffffffttt!!!!

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
Point 1. My bad (but it\'s still a bloody big bullet). Standard NATO for small arms is 5.56 though so I was halfway there lol

Yes, far more weighty than the piddly 5.56.

Originally posted by Torn blue sky
Point 3. I could say both! (in a sense). The 7.62 will travel further, but in the hands of these guys \"effective range\" is when they can still put a hole in you through any little trick! If anything I could say that the Taliban are extremely good shots. When I remarked this to the old man he told me they were exactly the same when he was soldiering on in the Radfan in Aden back in the 60\'s!
The reason they often use an AK47 for a sniper rifle is because they have so bloody many of them, and they\'re good with them. Granted they DO have access to the Dragunov, but when one isn\'t handy they don\'t shirk on improvisation.

I suppose this depends a bit on how you define \'sniping\'. A bog-standard AK from the factory is not an accurate gun (it\'s not designed to be) and is not really much use for aimed shots beyond 100-150m* which isn\'t really sniping distance.

*Assuming military ammo, man-sized target, crappy open sights.

The SVD on the other hand (which uses 7.62x54, not the same round as the AK) is accurate out to nearly 1km.

Originally posted by dbiggied
The record for the longest confirmed sniper kill is by a Canadian Light Infantry sniper using a McMillan TAC-50 (2,430 meters).

The record before that is Carlos Hancock who, during Vietnam, plugged a guy from 2,146 meters using a Browning .50 cal machine gun modified to fire single shots and fitted with a scope.

AK-47...Pfffffffttt!!!!

I\'m not sure of the relevance but yes, I know

It\'s Hathcock BTW. And the distance is supposed to have been 2,286 m (=2,500 yards, the rounded-off figure usually stated)

Einion

 

[Torn blue sky]

As far as my understanding goes though, the AK has 200m on the SA80 for effective range.
Thus lays that particular boon. They don\'t have to be miles away from a standard foot patrol. For all the evils of the taliban, they\'re pretty smart cookies. And as I said, very good shots.

I can\'t picture anyone sniping with a browning!Now that\'s inginuity!