Grey Knight as Black Templars...wrong or not?

[dims]

I got a tricky question, consering an idea I have for a painting competition (Golden Daemon 2012 maybe?), for Warhammer 40K squad. You see, I am not too well versed in the 40K universe fluff to know whether a specific Space Marine chapter would or would not have certain units, look in a specific way, iconology, etc, etc. But here's the idea: I am so fond of the new Grey Knight Terminators, but not of the color scheme. However, I AM fond of the 'simple' Black Templar scheme, and decided to use the GK Termies and convert them to BT Termies.
Now I just got the sprues at home, and I see all these awesome icons, engravings, etc. etc. How WRONG is it (fluff wise) to use these terminators for this idea anyway? Is it completely horsesh*t, stupidest idea ever, or could it even be a really cool idea, but with some pointers? What are those pointers? Oh and please, as a rookie poster on CMON, I ask that if you BURN this idea, please don't just burn it, but be constructive? Thanks!

Some things I intent to do:
- Get ALL termies a loin cloth, and even sculpt some cloth on the chest,
- Get other, templar-like shoulderpads (ordered those already),
- Get rid of the obvious Grey Knight references (engravings, Inquisitor icons,...???)

Other hints, tips, pointers, ideas???

PS: I could use an incredible tutorial for sculpting the loin cloths though! Links anyone?

 

[me_in_japan]

if youre thinking to enter GD, you have to be fluff-tastically accurate, I believe. That means NO grey knight iconography at all. It also means no nemesis force weapons, as those are GK specific, and I think it may even rule out the grey knight helmet with the big gorget. Not 100% sure on that last point.

All in all, while some space marine models are pretty flexible, GK are really quite chapter specific. You may have a hard time doing them up sufficient to convince a GD judge that theyre Black Templars, but that's not to say you shouldn't try. That said, if you just want to paint them to look nice, then by all means go ahead and just paint GK as black templars.

 

[Aoroi]

BT's were my first chapter I ever played in 40K. They basically HATE psychics and have a different fighting and squad make up than normal Adeptus Astartes (Space marines who follow a code set down after the great war). Between the two chapters there is also a large fluff difference. GK's will basically wipe themselves clean of emotions and personality, glory for the emperor, not for themselves.

Iconolgy between the two: BTs have more flat and broad icons, like the cloth and notably is the iron cross and sometimes the iron cross with skulls. GKs will have a lot of scroll work, heavy looking armor. They way I feel between the two, BT's are like the Christian Crusaders, and GK's are the classic black knight look (just with silver)

Weapons: GK's will have stylized halberd like weapons, also as you see the guns are modeled different as well. BT's have the standard weapons you get in space marine kits, most notably is the sword though, I know every chapter has power swords and the like, but IIRC they were the first to have the Emperors Champion model.

Do not go against the fluff of the chapters if you submit it as that chapter. Take a look at this: http://www.coolminiornot.com/24443?browseid=1190865 it took me a while to find it on here, but I used to browse his site alot. The model is amazing and the work is great, the problem is he used a shoulder pad from the Chaos Space Marines. If you do not play the game you would never notice, it looks like a dragon, which kind of fits with the chapter, but it was still incorrect. I love your idea, I do, I even thought of doing that myself for my old chapter of BT's, but there is so much custom made for the GK's it is just not possible. IMO I would say make the GK's as spectacular as you can, I usually only see them in a battle ready pose (swords drawn, or looking down the hand gun barrels), why not have them fighting or something.

Hope I helped at least a little.

 

[dims]

Thanks a lot, guys. I can see Iam really up for a challenge here, and probably one that would not make a GD! One thing I had not thought of was the weapon set - they use 'standard' Space Marine build, so either Lightning Claws, Thunderhammer/Shield, or Stormbolter & Fist. Which is really boring considering the awesome weaponry available to the GK's. So this really makes me consider the options again. Either step up to the challenge, order some lightning claws and stuff, and proceed with the idea, or like Aoroi says: keep the GK theme and do them awesome.

This last option is still less interesting as I seriously detest the silver/ grey color scheme, and I just soooo love cloth! Hell, I could still do the piece as envisioned, with all the wrong choices but make it a COOL looking piece, and just generally f*ck it

About the pose: I envisioned them as a unit just done fighting, walking away from a bloodridden battlefield, gore and damage and dirt and everything...

 

[Aoroi]

So I looked more over the models, I think you can convert them fully, it will just take time and you will lose a lot of what makes them interesting. Here are a couple of tips:

Remove any icons with the " I " with 2 dashes on it, thats the symbol for Inquisitors.

The scroll work can be filled in nicely and reshaped with greenstuff. Just fill up the lines between the letters, press it firmly with your fingers into the gabs. I do not recommend filling up the scroll work all the way, partly fill it then when hard do it again and shape it, perhaps like an extra breastplate design, maybe a stylized 6 pack or something. Take a look at this http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440191a&prodId=prod550014a Or you can fill it, then make the robes. I do not foresee the terminators using robes across the body, just more cumbersome. With the High marshal piece, he has cloth across his left shoulder pad, looks real well. Or a third option, fill the lettering, and keep it flat/ line flowing with the natural armor path.

On the heads you can add a nice olive leaf head piece. That will really work well with the BT theme, look here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1160023a

You will have to remove the storm bolters from above the hands. On the plus side, that is a great spot to put the lightning claws.

The swords cross guards may have to be changed. I cannot see from the websites photos but it looks like the " I " symbol from uptop, you could but a nice cage over the hand or stylized the guards though.

The shields on the shoulder pads are also a GK item, so you may think about removing those.

I hope this helps some more, make them how ever you want, but the main changes I can see online I tried to address.

 

[dims]

Thanks! That is exactly the feedbak I was hoping for. I now know what icons to remove, adjust or een keep. I know that this entry will not depict your average Black Templar Terminator Squad, And maybe I shouldn't try to. If I would, I'd taken ordinary Terminator models. So I'm gonna go with I feel is really cool, yet still not overly out of touch with the BT theme. Your pointers really help with that.
I AM probably gonna still gonna use some of the GK weaponry, simply because it looks cool! And yes, I know they will not fit the bill game-wise, so propably it won't even enter GD, but other, less strict competitions.
I intend to keep my blog updated on this piece. Maybe even post it here? Get some good feedback now and again.

 

[Aoroi]

Well, BT's were made before GK's. So I for see the generic terminators getting reworked, more of a blank GK theme, at least with weaponry is concerned. Just do them how you like, enter if you wish. Black is a hard color to pull off, well more so the details in the black like icons and white cross shoulder pads, one reason I stopped using them. Personaly, if you did the robes, and have them covered or blood splattered, that would look amazing, bone color and red against black, very appealing imo. Take a look at: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1400016&rootCatGameStyle= They are Dark Angels. Personally I hate them as a chapter, but may help you do some of the robes better, almost all of there units are robed (but the termies)

 

[Bloodhowl]

PS: I could use an incredible tutorial for sculpting the loin cloths though! Links anyone?

See if this is what you had in mind for sculpting:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1336

Fluff wise, (I play Space Wolves, not BT or GK, so check their codexes!)as already mentioned, you have to redo the icons and weapons. However, you might be able to pass the armor off as pre-heresy/great crusade armor the BT recovered from a space hulk or a campaign from a planet on the fringe of the empire.

Take a look at Forge World. I know they have models for earlier makes of Power Armor, but the Tactical Dreadnought Armor may still be free to do as you see fit. It will depend on how you sell it to the judges.

 

[bildo]

the black templars were not made before grey knights, the gks were started when horus first landed on terra with his heresy stuff. malcador walked right out amongst the firing, got on a ship mid battle with 8 people and left for titan, 3 of these people started the inquisition and other 5 started training the gk recruits that were awaiting them. many years later the black templars were started

as for the modelling you dont need to remove the stormbolters, just make them single barreled so they are merely wrist mounted pistols. as for the =I= filling, id suggest milliput as its sandable, so you can have a nice smooth easy finish with no hassle

 

[Bloodhowl]

the black templars were not made before grey knights...

Both are a second founding chapter, but it can be argued the Grey Knights are older. From wh40k.lexicanum.com:

Much of the Grey Knights history remains in mystery and secrecy or has been purposefully removed from archives. However according to legend, the Grey Knights began as a project during the final days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor foresaw that the Heresy would likely end at such a great personal cost to himself that he would be prevented from actively defending mankind from the great threat of Chaos and its Daemons. So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil.

Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden. Malcador found twelve worthy champions; four were lords and administrators, and eight were Space Marines (Garviel Loken, Iacton Qruze, Nathaniel Garro, Librarian Tyloss Rubio, Captain Varren, Janus21 22 23), some hailing from Legions that had turned traitor. The Emperor surveyed the chosen recruits and granted his approval and consent to proceed with the project. So the recruits split ways to go off towards separate tasks; the four lords ventured off to lay the framework of the Inquisition, whilst the Space Marines and Malcador traveled to Saturn's moon of Titan.

Titan, through Malcador's sorcerous means, had been hidden away from the ravages of the Horus Heresy. When they arrived they found a Fortress-monastery already fully prepared and stocked with everything necessary to create a new army of Space Marines including supplies of gene-seed, which is suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly, and all the necessary armaments. The fortress was also already populated with hundreds upon hundreds of suitable recruits from across the Galaxy. Some were raw and untrained, whilst others were selected in secret from among the ranks of loyalist Legions. This new army would be a Chapter - a smaller, tighter brotherhood of Space Marines than a Legion. Malcador could no longer remain and thus he appointed Janus, one of the eight original Space Marines, to be the Grey Knights leader and take the title of Supreme Grand Master. Before leaving, Malcador cast his greatest enchantment yet; he hid Titan away from Horus in the most unlikely of places, inside the Warp itself. Titan was protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites whilst the final battles of the Heresy took place in Real Space.

When Titan eventually returned, the Second Founding was taking place. Whilst in the Warp, time had passed at a greater rate for Titan and so it had emerged not with the original eight Space Marines and their raw recruits, but with a full Chapter of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers. The Second Founding was being directed by the newly formed Inquisition under the control of the same lords who Malcador had selected years before. So they secretly included the Grey Knights amongst the growing list of new Chapters, designating them Chapter 666, despite there being barely 400 Chapters commissioned at the time. The Grey Knights, different from all the other new Chapters, were embedded within the Inquisition to serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus to fight against all things Daemonic.

For the OP, you should be able to get away with using the GK armor, as long as the armor is explained as relic armor the chapter had at the time of founding, or found and recovered on a crusade.

 

[dims]

Wow - that may even be a bit too much background than I wanted .

I clearly see that this entry will probably offend a lot of true-to-the-fluff-fans, in every little detail possible. Well, tough luck. I decided to do the piece as I envisioned it anyway. I aim to make it look uber awesome, try to consider fluff as much as possible, but if it does not fit the bill 100%, tough luck! (no offense to you guys though!)

ATM I have already clipped all the pieces from the GK Terminator sprue, and removed the most obvious markings of Grey Knights. These were mainly on the torso parts. I flattened that out, and will sculpt cloth over it later. I am awaiting a shipment with some Scibor shoulderpads that I found really cool - and yeah, they'll probably hit someone's 'hey, this is not fluff'-panick-button.
I will try to keep a journal on my blog, but with f*ckloads of other stuff going on, I expect a slow progress.

Anyway, thanks a bunch to all you guys who helped me clarify the fluffyness behind my question. And although the answer should obviously be: "very wrong", I hope to hear some encouraging voices as well as this piece progresses.

BTW, @Bloodhowl: Your wife does some hardcore AWESOME photography! Couldn't resist taking a peek

 

[me_in_japan]

I clearly see that this entry will probably offend a lot of true-to-the-fluff-fans, in every little detail possible. Well, tough luck. I decided to do the piece as I envisioned it anyway. I aim to make it look uber awesome, try to consider fluff as much as possible, but if it does not fit the bill 100%, tough luck! (no offense to you guys though!)

sir, I salute you and your attitude. Go for it

 

[Aoroi]

the black templars were not made before grey knights,/QUOTE]

I had meant as a production line, the Grey Knights models came out rather recently. When you look, the BT's were on the cover and beginning sets for 3rd edition 40K. I had meant that, I know they had redone some of the Terminator units already, that in time all the chapters or a generic model will get redone similar to the GK or at least more than the tower hunk of armor they are now (that can be knocked over by stumbling over a rock )

 

[Aoroi]

Well, tough luck. I decided to do the piece as I envisioned it anyway. I aim to make it look uber awesome, try to consider fluff as much as possible, but if it does not fit the bill 100%, tough luck! (no offense to you guys though!)

HAHA, Nice!!! Good Luck.