GW Rip Off!!!!!!!!!!

[Sturmhalo]

Lots of heated discussion here!

OK, GW want to make money, we all do. But, I think they just annoy people so much because of their possibly heavy handed way of going about it! Regular redesigns and price increases just put peoples noses out of joint and do give the impression that they\'re not concerned about the gamer or gaming as a whole. It\'s certainly very easy to see GW as existing in a bubble these days. You\'ve got gaming which encompasses all the companies and periods they cover, and then you\'ve got GW with the \'Games Workshop hobby\'.

There are similarities between GW and Foundry at the moment (not just Brian Ansell!). The pricing policy at Foundry went through a bit of change years ago. Models were about £0.60 each, then they went up to £0.75 or something. Then they decided to put all their models into packs rather than sell them individually and came up with what I think was £6.50 for a pack of 8 foot models. Not long after they decided on £8.50 as the standard price of all their packs (infantry, cavalry & guns etc). I think there were some murmurings of discontent at this time! But, we all get used to it. Now Foundry begin releasing fantasy and near future models. The pack prices remain the same but the amount of models per pack is reduced. You\'re now looking at getting anything between 4 and 6 models per pack, with some slightly larger models being sold singley or in twos. Quite a few packs don\'t seem worth the price, either due to quality or quantity! But over all, you\'re paying more for less. That\'s been the case with GW for many years now.

I don\'t buy GW models these days. They cost too much, I\'m not a big fan of plastics, and basically I can live without them (I may buy a couple of Tau models though in the future just to finish off the small set of figures I bought a while back). I have spent loads on GW paint though, but I\'m looking elsewhere for that now. I guess I\'ll stick with their inks and the odd colour that I can\'t live without, but my annual contribution to GW will be nominal. However, I may have to buy some of their figures to paint and sell as that is my business and they are good sellers! Imagine being dependent on the one you\'re trying to boycot??? Morally awkward me thinks! Guess I\'ve just destroyed all credibility in my own arguments as well. Ah... such is the rich tapestry that is life.

 

[kannan_fodder]

Sorry Sturm, I just posted a sarcastic comment or two. Seems most people got it, but obviously one didn\'t. And the posts blatantly defending GW were ignored... Imagine that!

I feel that you, like anyone else, is entitled to their own opinion, and I\'m not going to take potshots at you for it. I would just like the same courtesy.

You nailed it perfectly. GW is constantly redesigning something, making new champions and special characters, new armies, new rules, etc. This makes it mandatory for the avid GW Universe player to keep buying the latest and greatest line of products. Which in turn increases profits. Not to mention the fact that GW is also out there advertising and encouraging new people into the \"Games Workshop Hobby\".

 

[Chronique]

I don\'t know, I can\'t see the big deal.

My problem is that I don\'t have a great job, in fact, I have a really nasty job. YET, I can afford my car payments, insurance living expenses groceries, and all of that fun crap, and I can still afford to have a home theater, nice car, play paintball, (among other hobbies) AND have a massive collection of gaming stuff. I don\'t see what everyone\'s problem is. Seems to me like jealousy. I mean, when I find some over-priced piece of marketing bullcrap, I just go “Gee I’m glad I’m not a sucker that would fall for that crap.” NOT “Oh man, who do they take me for? I’m insulted! How dare they charge me $20 for a [insert product here] that cost nothing to produce! I can get a product like it somewhere else for less money, yet I’m going to sit here and piss and moan about it, because I REALLY want this particular toy for less instead.” Because that sort of thing doesn’t even get to me, it’s so lame. I mean, what the hell? Am I the only one that sees that analogy? In fact, the ONLY reason I can see for the attitudes expressed by everyone who complains about GW prices is something akin to: “Man, they COULD be selling me this for really cheap, enabling me to have all the toys I want without having to spend hardly any money on them, but they DIDN’T! WHY?” And then I hear nothing about how they DON’T charge what they could be getting for some of their stuff, of course, or even better, when they come out with plastics, giving you twice as many or more figures for the same price there’s only complaints about how inferior it is to pewter, and they want it both ways. (Man, I hate the pewter/plastics superiority war, but that’s an argument for another thread, I guess.)

I mean, I’m not a rube. I do try and weigh the different arguments in a convo before I interject, and I literally would love to see this from a different angle, but I have yet to hear and argument that stands for a good reason to bash GW, so I guess, yeah. I am defending it, if for no other reason that there’s really nothing morally or ethically wrong at all with what they’re doing. In reality, they could be pushing the envelope a lot more with both price and quality, but they don’t. I’ve known tons of gamers, and more than half of them would still pay more if they had to (even those in denial *ahem* that means some reading this post). Don’t believe me? Does this sound familiar? Average Smoker: “Oh man, I’m gonna quit if it gets any more expensive!” and then they add the part “…And this time, I mean it!” …Yeah, right. Actions speak louder than words, there “lungs”
:]

 

[ColinH2O]

GW Rip Off

GW has been ripping people off for years. It is at a point where no one can afford to buy their stuff. I have been buying figs for 25 yrs. and it all started with GW going with the plastic bases and shields for the figs. I still have some of their stuff that has metal bases and real shields with designs and details right on them. I will never buy another GW product as long as the other companies can keep the detail up in their figs.

 

[Chronique]

Check your sources.

Apparently, someone didn’t even read the other posts before commenting, or bothered to check facts. Colin is as uninformed as can be. The reason GW is still the world’s largest supplier of wargames material, is because, in fact, people CAN afford to buy their stuff. I can. All my friends can. Everyone I know can. (And no, I don\'t only know wealthy people, some aren\'t very well off at all) I’d like to meet someone who actually can’t afford to buy their stuff. LITERALLY. The question is whether or not they DO buy them.

Again, I’m still waiting for a good argument against GW prices.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Originally posted by kannan_fodder
Sorry Sturm, I just posted a sarcastic comment or two. Seems most people got it, but obviously one didn\'t. And the posts blatantly defending GW were ignored... Imagine that!

Yes, I\'m afraid I obviously missed your attempts at sarcasm. So subtle was it, it\'s almost not there at all! And anyway, I wasn\'t responding as a direct result of your post! I just had a few points I wanted to make.

:moon:

 

[Coyote]

Vallejo pigments are ground finer during production, and there are more pigments in the paint.

This allows the paint to be thinned much more then other paints, and flow better.

Also, the other, chemical bits of the paint are superior, meaning there is less surface tension, they dry flat (unless they are gloss paints) and they dry fast.

I put 3 thin coats of Cavalry brown (actually a red paint) over a large, black surface area. The coats were very thin and the end result was a very smooth, flat even colour. I find GW paints get very glossy when thinned heavily.

Physically, in application, Vallejo paints are better. They are also better packaged, in easy to use squeeze bottles which aren\'t likely to dry out and are easy to dispense paint to your palette with (bad grammer, I know). They are 17ml, so they contain more paint per container, but are slightly more expensive per pot. However, if you compare the price per ml, Vallejo are cheaper.

They do have a few physical downsides. They are soft until cured, so that if you don\'t let a coat fully dry, anything applied over it will ruin the smooth finish.

The seperate in their containers and take a great deal of shaking to fix. I recommend agitators. I was too lazy to find stainless steel ball bearings, so used bits of sprue. The heavier the better, but the bits of sprue are better then nothing.

However, these are nothing - no paint is perfect. The biggest problem with Vallejo paints is you can\'t walk down to your hobby store and pick the colours you want. The majority of people do not have a local stockist.

I do, and I\'m very, very glad I do. Using the paint names and the paint chart they give you is hit and miss. Even looking at the colour in the pots can be deceiving (their bronze looks very much like tin bitz in the bottle, but is very bright when applied to the miniature. Gunmetal Blue looks like a dark black/blue metallic in the bottle, but when applied is a bright metallic blue/purple)

Vallejo is relatively new to the market, and if you ask your local stockist to order it for you, they will probably realize that there is demand and start stocking the paints.

To help your local retailer, visit the Vallejo website. http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/ and e-mail them, asking for a distributor for Vallejo Model Color in your area.

Bring that info to your hobby shop and if they decide there is the demand, they will stock it.

At 220 colours it is an investment for the hobby shop, so having many people come in and ask will help

 

[Infidel Castro]

Can of worms

Well well well. A bit of a pickle eh? I\'ll be straight and say I\'ve been gobsmacked at times by GW prices. I bought a Space Marine Apothecary (really just an ordinary marine with slight conversions) and two Imperial Stormtroopers. That little lot set me back ten quid! Three minis! The only reason this seems expensive to me is because I used to buy stuff from GW when I was a lot younger and it seemed more affordable...which it would in comparison! It\'s been a long time since then, probably about 10yrs and I stopped the whole hobby til about a year ago. Coming back into things was a bit of a culture shock as prices were way up and the staff seemed more like sales persons rather than enthusiasts. The miniatures were better but the paints weren\'t. That\'s the original bone of contention if I recall! The paints weren\'t as good as the ones that HMG paints of Manchester England supplied GW with under the Citadel name and seemed to be smaller and they sure as hell dry quickly in the pot. I\'ll always use GW in some capacity as I grew up with it as a kid and overall they have the most consistently impressive models with a huge range and back catalogues. However, I do have to think twice these days and that\'s as an earner, not with pocket money lol

The paints are being upgraded to new bottles and are having another price increase and that is the really annoying aspect of it all - the paints aren\'t as good as they used to be, the bottles are smaller and they are going up in price. Now that\'s plain and simple! It does seem to be a rip-off doesn\'t it?

As Chronique said, people will always buy it. As someone else said, if they put ridiculously high prices on the market people won\'t buy them. As people are still buying them, people aren\'t exactly voting with their wallets, meaning the prices aren\'t exactly exorbitant. Still, every little knock and every little mickey take will be remembered and eventually GW may see small slumps...only each time that happens, new kids will be coming through.

F*%$ing hell! Why am I joining in? I just realised I\'m trying to see both sides of it again and make a compromise for everyone... In the end it doesn\'t matter. It\'s a hobby not life or death.

But if you\'re interested go to http://www.gladiator.clara.net/coatd.htm
for Coat d\'Arms in the UK (the same paints as GW used to have before they made their own).

Also in GW defence, have you seen the price of the Celtos minis? Ha ha ha! They beat GW hands down on high prices for little return...

There. I said everything yet nothing.

Phil

 

[Just Some Guy]

Originally posted by SoothandThe place is friggen HUGE!

Yes, it would be. The entire UK business is based at that site, as is Forge World, Black Library, Specialist Games, Games Develpment, the Northern Europe trade support, a factory, main warehouse for the whole of Europe, Warhammer World...the list goes on.

Originally posted by SoothandAnd that\'s just the foyer (complete with 12\' tall space marine sculpted in white marble no less...)

GW HQ doesn\'t have a foyer. It has a reception that isn\'t much bigger than my living room. And the \"12\' Space Marine\" is neither 12\', made of white marble nor in the foyer. It\'s about 8\' max, fibre glass and in front of the building.

Originally posted by SoothandIt takes trainloads of bling bling to keep a place like that running!

The same could be said of any large, international company.

The 25 pence price rise is to pay for more expensive flip-top caps for the paint pots, because everybody complains about the screw-top caps. Everybody used to complain about the old flip-top caps, but memory is ever fickle, eh? From what I\'ve heard, the volume of the pots will not be reduced, but whether it will be increased or not I don\'t know. There will also be a few new colours and quite a few colours being discontinued because nobody buys them.

I\'m not a great fan of Citadel Colour these days, but at least it\'s widely available and you know what you\'re getting. If I could find a local store that sold Vallejo I\'d probably switch. While ever I can only get it online, I\'m never going to switch; I can\'t correctly judge the colours without a pot of the stuff in my hand. Familiarity and availability will ensure Citadel Colour continues to sell even if you do need four coats of some of the colours to cover even a white undercoat.

 

[pitynoman]

I\'ve always had a rocky love/hate relationship with GW, ever since about 88 since they had a store down in LA Santa Monica.It was staffed by a bunch of elitist wankers and ended up going under.

Anyhow,not regurgitate the stuff on both sides of the battle line, GW did something today that impressed me (I am not,nor ever would defend them). One of my GW cases suffered a broken latch, I called one of the Trolls and voila replacement case - free.

Whether it ever gets here is another question,but their customer service seems to have improved.

On the other hand I just completed the move on to Vallejos,great stuff.

A funny note, before the Imperial Eagle case, GW used to sell a GUN case for $35.
SAME case at WallMart $8. Thank god for firearms, I knew that right away and spared all my friends the expence.

 

[Coyote]

Don\'t paint all GW employees with the same brush. I\'ve been invited to games of Warhammer Quest by staff, as well as being recognized by name when my girlfriend was shopping for a present for me. The manager remembered what I collected and what I liked.

 

[kannan_fodder]

I\'ve often wondered how long it will take before a cop decides to stop me while walking up the street to my friend\'s house with my GW \"figure\" case. At night it\'s really hard to see that eagle!

But it hasn\'t happened yet.

 

[pitynoman]

Originally posted by kannan_fodder
I\'ve often wondered how long it will take before a cop decides to stop me while walking up the street to my friend\'s house with my GW \"figure\" case. At night it\'s really hard to see that eagle!

But it hasn\'t happened yet.

FUNNY!
lol
However I know a lot of people who had their cars broken into,because someone thought they were guns or tools.Thankfully a couple of them got lucky and found their cases in the nearby alley once the dumbasses who did it realized it wasn\'t what they thought.

 

[kannan_fodder]

I\'ve worried about that too!

Makes me think of the time I helped a friend move. She has a long bow and a broadsword, and I was driving a \'65 Mustang. The bow was too long to put in the back seat and the trunk was full, so I had to put the darn thing between the seats along the center console. Gives a new meaning to \"riding shotgun\".

But I digress....

 

[smokey]

here\'s my view from the peanut gallery:

GW models and supplies sell, plain and simple. they can, and do, set whatever price on their products that they beleive will turn the biggest profit. It\'s called CAPITALISM, and it works.

If you are unhappy with the product, don\'t buy it. No-one has put a gun to your head and shouted \"You will buy GW!!\" If your rebuttal is \"But there\'s no support/gaming clubs for other companies!!\" I say this: Start some yourself. Who\'s said that you have to find other groups? Why not take the initiative and start one yerself? who knows, you might open up a whole new field.

Personally, I buy the paint colors that I like, no matter who makes \'em. I use regular Testor\'s enamel paint (albeit one color only) Tamiya (love the yellows) Ral Partha (Tauren Brown is the greatest color ever, and Olive is perfect for ork skin) Model Master, hell, I even use oil paints!! Paints are tools in the toolbox. Different tools for different jobs. Because I enjoy this hobby I simply pay the price, and deal with it.

I also don\'t buy the newest models as soon as they come out. i wait, finish up the current projects I\'m working on, and then decide wether I want to buy the newest model or start a different project. In the end, yes, it is expensive. However, I\'m willing to pay, in order to play. maybe that makes me a sheep. maybe not.

Also, as far as overpriced character models are concerned, look at Prophet\'s work. many of his concepts are based on regular plastic models (Take his SOB model, for instance).

And besides, since there are sooo many more gaming clubs for GW, there are bound to be people that you can trade with. I can\'t count how many models I\'ve gotten through either trades or shopping around (ebay, buy off friends, etc.) many gamers are willing to sell off minis that they ended up not needing, for cheaper (in the end) than they paid for \'em.

If you are that unsatisfied with GW, write them. Talk to your friends, and get them to write as well. if enough people speak out, GW might just listen. Or like someone else said, buy stock. at 140.00 p per share it is pricey, but any company WILL listen to it\'s shareholders.

My $.02. Oh, and I make a little less than $18,000/year.

Smokey

 

[kannan_fodder]

I\'m going to get back on track and point out something I\'ve noticed lately with what I\'ve seen in stores from the gaming industry.

First, when I started buying GW paints a number of years ago (5 maybe?), regular paint was $2.25 a pot, metallics were a little more.

Second, Reaper entered the market a couple of years ago with their own line of paints. ALL colors started at $1.99 a pot.

Third, I started buying Reaper minis before I started buying GW paints. At that time most Reaper minis were priced at either $2.00, $2.50, or $2.75.

Skip forward to today. Both companies are charging more for their paints as well as their lines of miniatures. But since GW covers a large area of the market, it is usually more noticeable to anyone, especially those buying GW products. (And GW is a little more aggressive about promoting themselves with programs and strategies like the Outriders. I haven\'t seen that with any other company, yet.)

I\'m only using GW and Reaper as examples because those are the two most prominent companies in my local store. Rackham has just become available (in my store), and I have to say the prices are around what GW charges for their minis. I believe the rising cost of gaming supplies reflects what we call \"inflation\" here in the US - but that is only MY opinion. (And truth be known, gas prices are far worse than gaming supplies!)

And I guess that rising costs of ANYTHING is bound to irritate the targeted consumer. But again, that is just my opinion.

:moon: :moon: