hell, handbasket, meet earth....

[funnymouth]

sh!it is pretty rough in the wide world these days, and i havent heard a whisper about it on c\'mon. to controversial? maybe, but i still want to know: what do the mini painters think? how can all of this death be good?

im also miffed about the stem cell veto. dropping bombs in cities is ok, nay, good, but federally funding research on embryonic stem cells (collected for IVF, which will be destroyed) is immoral? im at a loss....
stem cell veto

 

[RedSevenBlue]

It all depends who you ask. I forgot to ask my local father about if going to war was right or wrong for my religion. :redface:

 

[supervike]

I dunno how I feel about this...Its not as if the feud is new. On the one hand I feel Israel should have the right to defend itself as it sees fit, but on the other hand, when will it end? Each attack makes new martyrs, new enemies.

I just know if Armageddon is beginning, then I hope we don\'t see either Bruce Willis or Ben Affleck....thats too much for my soul to take.

 

[vincegamer]

The stem cell veto is garbage.
For the extreme minority who believe that IVF is immoral, then the veto makes sense. It’s just that it’s not consistent to say that these embryonic cells must be thrown away (incinerated I imagine) and that’s not killing, but using those same cells to find a cure for millions of suffering people is killing. I can understand if someone says we shouldn’t create them in the first place - disagree but understand - but to say creating them to be thrown away is okay but salvaging them to cure the lame is not just sits ill with me. But then, I have not agreed with our current president on anything I can think of. And of course, to say this war is in any way a just war is utter bull.

 

[dauber22]

See this thread:
Violence in India
for lots of discussion on the uses of violence.

As to the stem cell question... WEll, it appears the disusion is beginning here now. I personally don\'t know enough about the specific regulation that got vetoed to same much intellignet. I do believe though that it doesn\'t ban the research, just the federal funding of it. Surely, if it could prove to have that much of a potential impact, there should be plenty of people willing to fund it. Pfizer, Glaxo-Smith-Klein, Merck all leap to mind.

 

[Ritual]

I think everyone can pretty much agree on that Hezbollah are wrong in their actions, but that does not automatically make everything Israel does right! Israel is currently destroying Lebanons entire infrastructure which means the country and its people will suffer for a long time to come. That can hardly be considered defensive actions and even seen as retaliation it\'s pretty far out of proportion compared to three kidnapped soldiers. Of course, there\'s been a lot of escalating and retaliations upon retaliations, with Hezbollah firing rockets into northern Israel towns, but these actions serve only Hezbollah in the end. They wanted to pick a fight but don\'t have the means to do something serious against Israel. So they kidnap a couple of soldiers and Israel swallow the bait. And Israel sure have the means to unleash hell!! Just like Hezbollah want.

 

[vincegamer]

Even the big companies use federal funds for research. They aren\'t used to footing the entire bill themselves. Some may, but the amount they put into it will not be what it would be - and thus won\'t yield as much.
The bill prohibits funding of any research using any new lines. Currently there is research being done on some old lines (basically continually replicated cells) but the problem is they have been contaminated and their value is almost nil.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Ritual
I think everyone can pretty much agree on that Hezbollah are wrong in their actions, but that does not automatically make everything Israel does right! Israel is currently destroying Lebanons entire infrastructure which means the country and its people will suffer for a long time to come. That can hardly be considered defensive actions and even seen as retaliation it\'s pretty far out of proportion compared to three kidnapped soldiers. Of course, there\'s been a lot of escalating and retaliations upon retaliations, with Hezbollah firing rockets into northern Israel towns, but these actions serve only Hezbollah in the end. They wanted to pick a fight but don\'t have the means to do something serious against Israel. So they kidnap a couple of soldiers and Israel swallow the bait. And Israel sure have the means to unleash hell!! Just like Hezbollah want.

The Lebaneese Government should have taken care of Hezbollah before the Israeli\'s had to. If you see a problem and refuse to fix it, don\'t get all huffy when someone else decides to in a manner you don\'t like.

As to out of proportion, wars aren\'t won by being proportional.
The goal is to kill more of them and break more of their stuff then they do to you.
Look at WWII in the Pacific: 90,000 Americans combat deaths to 1.4 million Japanese combat deaths.
I don\'t recall anyone complaining about proportion then.

This isn\'t over a soldier or even three, this is over 50 years of the Israeli\'s giving in, pulling back and trying to be diplomatic, for peace, only to have this kind of crap keep happening.
It\'s merely the straw that broke the camels back.
The bottom line is that no matter how much we might wish it were so, some people do not and will not understand diplomacy.
They only understand violence.

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
The Lebaneese Government should have taken care of Hezbollah before the Israeli\'s had to.

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government...

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by vincegamer
Even the big companies use federal funds for research. They aren\'t used to footing the entire bill themselves

I guess I see that as part of the problem. There is so much personal & corporate wealth available in this country - especially in pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies and other things associated with health care - yet we expect the government - who gets much of its money from poor, dumb schlubs like me - to be willing to foot the bill for everything. And if they make some great breakthrough that changes mankind, that money sure as shit doesn\'t go back to poor, dumb schlubs. YEs, yes, I know, it\'s not all about money; its about advancing the human condition and all that. Wwell, if that\'s the case, let all those companies that used my money donate their profits to charities to continue the advancement.

 

[EricJ]

First of all, what is up with all the news agencies crying WWIII about this israel fiasco? There have been 2+ (depending on what you count) full scale wars between Israel and it\'s neighbors in the last 40 years, which were a hell of a lot more escalated than what is happening now. In fact other than the media sensationalization of the situation, what is happening is almost more the status quo in northern israel/lebanon, sad to say. It\'s almost as if the news networks had people over there already, and it was a short flight from Iraq to israel.

Not that I\'m sayign the situation is a good thing, mind you.

As for stem cells, I honestly think that the current state of the situation, particularly taking into consideration the recent news, is completely crazy. One on my closest friends is quadrapeligic, and the research is pretty much the only hope he has to ever get out of his chair again, and I have to say that it\'s rediculous that the US spends 100+ billion on a war that was not justified and 2000+ US lives, and ignores avenues of technology to save lives. On the bright side, other countries are pursuing this research, and I have a feeling that when there are significant breakthroughs and healthcare money starts rolling out of the US by the truckload, some things might change, and suddenly it will become an issue of US pride, and we\'ll have to be first and it will be the last we hear of the \"religious moral\" arguement...might happen, who knows

It\'s amazingly convenient how easily religous values are so easily perverted and manipulated in order to support a war effort, yet are so rigid and unyielding on subjects which don\'t fit political ends. It\'s almost as though those in power are more concerned about keeping their own power and forwarding their own agenda, while twisting the religion of their constituent to their will, rather than actually protecting the values and foundation of the religion. But that would never happen

The sad thing is how many people take this spoon fed perversion of religious morals for the sacred word without question.

 

[supervike]

I\'m no expert on anything, and especially not so in middle eastern affairs....but the \'50\' years of Israel giving in was proceeded by thousands of years of hatred and malice between the two. The formation of Israel tore land from people who had lived there for generations..that wound has never been sealed.

It would be akin to the International community coming to my town and saying American Indians are now the soverign party here, get the hell out. You think those types of tensions ever go away?

Israel has treated many of the Palestinians and Lebanese peoples as third class citizens. Thats not to say that those people haven\'t been terrorists and killers as well. There is enough blame to share between all the parties involved.

Like I said, my opinion is from the little I understand the whole situation, I\'d love it for someone to expand my knowledge or correct my thinking...

 

[Ritual]

@Eric
I think one of the things that causes the media to use these words are the effects this conflict could have on the world economy if the situation doesn\'t calm down pretty soon. For instance, after the first gulf war in the 90ies, which was a fairly quick affair, we had a quite deep and long lasting recession.

 

[vincegamer]

who first mentioned WWIII?
I heard it was Newt Gingrich.

 

[Orb]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
[The Lebaneese Government should have taken care of Hezbollah before the Israeli\'s had to. If you see a problem and refuse to fix it, don\'t get all huffy when someone else decides to in a manner you don\'t like.

As to out of proportion, wars aren\'t won by being proportional.
The goal is to kill more of them and break more of their stuff then they do to you.
Look at WWII in the Pacific: 90,000 Americans combat deaths to 1.4 million Japanese combat deaths.
I don\'t recall anyone complaining about proportion then.

This isn\'t over a soldier or even three, this is over 50 years of the Israeli\'s giving in, pulling back and trying to be diplomatic, for peace, only to have this kind of crap keep happening.
It\'s merely the straw that broke the camels back.
The bottom line is that no matter how much we might wish it were so, some people do not and will not understand diplomacy.
They only understand violence.

Wow

I saw a film (war footage) recently of US Marines going round and shooting wounded Japanese prisoners on a Pacific Island.......never seen that before, but when news of that filters back to the Japanese mainland is it any wonder they fought to the death rather than being executed by their victors? It only takes one story to influence a nation. Things go round in circles then and the dehumanisation of your enemy takes place; The Japanese did it with the Chinese, Germans with everybody, Americans with the Japanese.

As to Israelis and diplomacy........um.....is that what buldozing the houses of Palestinians is?
When you have people locked up for fighting an occupying nation, where does the line of freedom fighter and terrorist end? (I\'m talking Lebonese captured by Israelis during their occupation of the Lebonon - still classed as terrorists.......) If America was occupied and you were captured fighting your invaders, are you a terrorist?

And you cannot convince me for a second that bombing civilian infrastructure.........55 civilians killed last night..........but hey, I guess that\'s the goal...........

For years I was very much in awe of what Israel have done to protect themselves, to mobilise and take the initiative, to upgrade old and outdated equipment. But, personally, I feel that they are reacting too strongly, and have dehumanised their enemies so they can justify their current acts.

I DO NOT condone the acts of the Hezbollah, but neither can I accept what is happening is in any way helpful to solving the situation.

I also thing there are plenty of straws on the backs of certain groups in the area that also have been broken.........not just the Israelis

takes several steps back and waits for a hefty response.........

 

[RedSevenBlue]

GAH! TOO MUCH READING!

edit: your hear plenty about spec. ops. but nothing ever about black ops. But that may well be conspiracy theory and not fact.

 

[supervike]

Here is a scenario for you...


A kid grows up with nothing but contempt for the current regime. They killed his parents and everyone he has ever loved. Just for the rumor that he may have helped the opposing force, his home is burned and more family members killed. With barely any training, he happily joins up with this insurgent military organization, listens to the clerics and decides it is his destiny to defeat the facism. He risks his life, and many of his new friends LOSE thier lives conducting a raid in the Heart of the Enemy territory...But he is able to plant a bomb and escape....The explosion stops the Encroaching Empire and sends them packing but it no doubtedly kills many innocent people as well.

Is this guy a terrorist? [size=-2](or luke skywalker)[/size]

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by EricJ
It\'s almost as though those in power are more concerned about keeping their own power and forwarding their own agenda, while twisting the religion of their constituent to their will, rather than actually protecting the values and foundation of the religion.

bing-bing-bing-bing-bing-bing-bing!!!!!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!
:yes::idea:

 

[EricJ]

In the Israeli/Palastinian situation it\'s pretty much you have to say either they\'re both right, or both wrong, as basically their rational for actions are pretty much the same, wether it be defending their homeland, protecting their safety and security, retaliation, etc...the list goes on. However since 1967 Israel has become an obvious military and economic powerhouse in the region and largely the results on the land has dictated that might makes right. How this will ever end is really anyones guess.

However the situation between the Hezbollah and northern Israel is far different because basically the situation is between Syria and Israel. Syrian Leader Assad is in NO way a friend to the palastinians, and in fact has been SO cruel to them that it makes Israel look good. Rather it seems more to be a power play to assure his continued power, and essentually giving his people someone to hate, so they don\'t have time to realize that they really should be hating him.

It is an old saying, that to control a people you MUST give them something to hate and something to love, which we can see being used extensively throughout middle eastern dictatorships/Theocracies, as well as most notably historically in Facist Germany. (And presently the US?)

Bottom line is that there nothing I can think of to defend Syria\'s role, and I have to say that it is as much the fault of Syria as Israel for the desctruction of Lebenon.

I would have loved to see Lebenon 50 years ago, it sounds like it was a beautiful place.

 

[vincegamer]

My dad used to have an album called \"Evening in Beirut.\" Beautiful club music.
Beirut was the Paris of the Middle East.