Hello and ideas for a line of resin miniatures

[Einion]

I have a series of scifi miniatures I'm thinking of producing, vehicles mostly, in 28mm scale. I am designing them in Rhino and will have them 3d printed, then resin cast. I was wondering if anyone could comment on the demand or lack thereof for such things.

Just a note on this aspect: all 3D printing methods, far as I know, won't produce a master that's good enough as-is to satisfy the smoothness expectations of many or most customers.

The idea is this: a lot of what exists in the scifi-28mm range, as far as vehicles, go, are these very iconic-looking things that make no sense aesthetically or technically. Some of them are exaggerated, some of them are ridiculous. This observation isn't a damnation of these things, rather I'm just saying this is the norm. So I was thinking of producing vehicles that are more believable and better designed than say, a Leman Russ. Like tanks designed to imply that they actually have enough space inside for crew, machinery, and an engine big enough to power the thing.

I think this is a good idea, the Leman Russ (and many similar vehicles) are not realistic or believable.

Like you said yourself, these vehicles tend to make no sense technically. Well not meaning to be overly critical but neither does your proposed design. I'm not sure if you've read much hard SF but a lot of good thinking has already gone into what personal armour and AFVs might be like in an advanced technological civilisation. So let's have a look at your proposed tank design in light of the following points.

Power supply
Have to consider this first, since so many things hang off it.

So okay, given the period something on the order of a compact nuclear reactor would be the minimum power source. Given the output of anything along these lines is essentially limitless (or actually limitless for some proposals) this gives a lot of freedom regarding propulsion and weaponry.

Armour
As we've already established that there's unlimited power the mass of the vehicle (which is mostly the armour) isn't then much of a factor. So it can be thick. Really thick. Battleship thick.

This could give it the ability to absorb huge amounts of kinetic energy from a projectile or other impact, or electromagnetic energy (heat, laser/maser/X-ray laser) without being clever or sophisticated, just relying on mass and conductivity. But combine it with what we think of today as the requirements for smart armour - proper slope & shaping of components, avoidance of shot traps, defence in depth (multiple layers of different materials to defeat various threats) - then combine that with sheer mass and any thoughts of appliqué armour, reactive armour, offset shields or screens could be dispensed with.

Here's something many people don't even consider, does there even need to be any? This is a civilisation that can cross interstellar distances in a reasonable timeframe. So if you presume methods for generating shields maybe no physical armour is technically necessary... it could be a reactor, motor and offensive weapons held together with Meccano for all the difference it would make to survivability. So each vehicle could be much smaller; especially since they don't need to be manned...

Propulsion
Why tracks? Tracks are inherently limiting; they're an obvious weak point in the structure; they require multi-part track links, a sprocket wheel, road wheels, idler wheels etc. ergo many moving parts of multiple types, each one of which could fail without the action of the enemy - simple abrasion or mechanical stress is enough to potentially knock a vehicle out.

So, no tracks. Why not float above the surface? Don't like the idea of anti-gravity, then a hovercraft; so what if the tank weighs 500 tons, unlimited power remember?

Weaponry
Guns, when we are who needs guns?

If you don't have guns you don't need turrets as we would understand them - why wait for something to traverse when you can have weapons pointed in multiple directions simultaneously?

But say you do want one or more weapons that fire actual projectiles, they don't have to be big since the speed of the payload can be far faster than we think of as practical today (and energy increases with the square of the velocity, so projectile speed is a huge component of destructive power). So for example railguns; could have very large payload stores since each projectile is small (individual and collective mass is of course irrelevant) and the 'barrel length' doesn't have to be long in terms of the size of the vehicle.

Einion

 

[Firestryke31]

Of course if he's trying to make these as cheaper, custom alternatives to existing game pieces (such as the Rhino and whatnot) then they most likely should fit in with the rest of the game with regard to tech style and visual design.

 

[ollieholmes]

Of course if he's trying to make these as cheaper, custom alternatives to existing game pieces (such as the Rhino and whatnot) then they most likely should fit in with the rest of the game with regard to tech style and visual design.

My only problem there is GW might get a bit funny about IP rights.

 

[leopardpixie]

My only problem there is GW might get a bit funny about IP rights.

whats new about that?

 

[Phrawgg]

Just a note on this aspect: all 3D printing methods, far as I know, won't produce a master that's good enough as-is to satisfy the smoothness expectations of many or most customers.


I think this is a good idea, the Leman Russ (and many similar vehicles) are not realistic or believable.

Like you said yourself, these vehicles tend to make no sense technically. Well not meaning to be overly critical but neither does your proposed design. I'm not sure if you've read much hard SF but a lot of good thinking has already gone into what personal armour and AFVs might be like in an advanced technological civilisation. So let's have a look at your proposed tank design in light of the following points.

Power supply
Have to consider this first, since so many things hang off it.

So okay, given the period something on the order of a compact nuclear reactor would be the minimum power source. Given the output of anything along these lines is essentially limitless (or actually limitless for some proposals) this gives a lot of freedom regarding propulsion and weaponry.

Armour
As we've already established that there's unlimited power the mass of the vehicle (which is mostly the armour) isn't then much of a factor. So it can be thick. Really thick. Battleship thick.

This could give it the ability to absorb huge amounts of kinetic energy from a projectile or other impact, or electromagnetic energy (heat, laser/maser/X-ray laser) without being clever or sophisticated, just relying on mass and conductivity. But combine it with what we think of today as the requirements for smart armour - proper slope & shaping of components, avoidance of shot traps, defence in depth (multiple layers of different materials to defeat various threats) - then combine that with sheer mass and any thoughts of appliqué armour, reactive armour, offset shields or screens could be dispensed with.

Here's something many people don't even consider, does there even need to be any? This is a civilisation that can cross interstellar distances in a reasonable timeframe. So if you presume methods for generating shields maybe no physical armour is technically necessary... it could be a reactor, motor and offensive weapons held together with Meccano for all the difference it would make to survivability. So each vehicle could be much smaller; especially since they don't need to be manned...

Propulsion
Why tracks? Tracks are inherently limiting; they're an obvious weak point in the structure; they require multi-part track links, a sprocket wheel, road wheels, idler wheels etc. ergo many moving parts of multiple types, each one of which could fail without the action of the enemy - simple abrasion or mechanical stress is enough to potentially knock a vehicle out.

So, no tracks. Why not float above the surface? Don't like the idea of anti-gravity, then a hovercraft; so what if the tank weighs 500 tons, unlimited power remember?

Weaponry
Guns, when we are who needs guns?

If you don't have guns you don't need turrets as we would understand them - why wait for something to traverse when you can have weapons pointed in multiple directions simultaneously?

But say you do want one or more weapons that fire actual projectiles, they don't have to be big since the speed of the payload can be far faster than we think of as practical today (and energy increases with the square of the velocity, so projectile speed is a huge component of destructive power). So for example railguns; could have very large payload stores since each projectile is small (individual and collective mass is of course irrelevant) and the 'barrel length' doesn't have to be long in terms of the size of the vehicle.

Einion

In no particular order:

What I am really shooting for is an evem more specific market: Imperial Guard players, and anyone who happens to think MortMort’s Mortian tank is cool. So I consider both to be the starting point and my competitors.


Actually my design does make sense: it is still technically a bit of a caricature but it makes somewhat more sense: the engine bay is bigger, or rather it is proportionately big enough. As for the turrets and interior space, starting right after World War 2, the Soviets started a trend in their tank designs: they realized they needed lower tanks with steeper armor so they decided to start employing smaller crew members. My design, as shown is designed so that everyone but the commander would have to be short. The side turrets would be remotely controlled, like clunky versions of the things you see nowadays on Israeli tanks, but with retro armor over them.

There is a quote from the barn-storming days of America aviation that goes something like this: “if you strap an engine to a barn door, I could make it fly!” I was thinking “if you give me a clunky aesthetic, I can make it look imposing and plausible.” Or at least “better.” Better is good enough for me.

I fear that if I get into the nitty gritty of why I like what I like in a tank design, this thread may get off topic and never return. I would like to have that discussion but not in this thread. I know I’m not a moderator ; I’m just saying I’d rather not see the subject change if it can be helped.

 

[Phrawgg]

in the late 90's i was at a scifi convention in the Boston area, and i discovered miniature war gaming for the first time: GW had a stall where they showcased their goods and held demo games like they do in a game store. I imediatly noticed that their concepts were not original, rather they were riffs on other people's ideas. They had not yet come out with the Tau, which are the most original of what they do. Anyhow, I noticed things like how the Leman Russ was basically a remix of the Indiana Jones tank crossed with a Char B1 Bis, the Chimera was a remix of a BMP, the Necrons were obviously based on their Warhammer Fantasy undead guys, the Space Marines were basically space knights, the Imperial guard were sort of like British troops from the 70's, and their army was constructed to be the Soviet Army in Spaaaaace, and ultimately i noticed that the Tyranids were based on the Geiger Aliens. So I asked them about the Nids looking like the Aliens and they said "yeah when we first came out with them, the Aliens franchise sued us. We won by proving that we had chagned the original design by at least 25%, which is what copyright law requires." And so, people like me and Mort Mort will not get sued.

 

[Phrawgg]

Sort runs in resin are doable, short runs in injection moulding are not worth it as your costs per unit are going to be high.

As i said the cost is resin is the fact that the mould last so few a runs and there is a high wasteage rate. I know some companies use injection moulding machines and tools to inject resin but i have not found a company actualy offering this service yet. This company uses the process to make them but they are based in Russia, the website is actualy the UK distributor but they might be able to help.
http://www.neomega-resin.com/

So how do Forge World do it? Injection?

 

[Einion]

What I am really shooting for is an evem more specific market: Imperial Guard players, and anyone who happens to think MortMort’s Mortian tank is cool. So I consider both to be the starting point and my competitors.

Okay, fair enough. But I took as my starting point what you said in your opening post, "...a lot of what exists in the scifi-28mm range, as far as vehicles, go... make no sense aesthetically or technically. Some of them are exaggerated, some of them are ridiculous." All of which is true and very obvious to a fan of hard SF.

If you want to go full-on away from this - which is what I thought you wanted - then one has to look past the present-day playbook for what makes a tank/AFV. But given the market it makes sense not to go that far because what 'looks right' sells, irrespective of whether it actually is technically viable or believable for the period!

Actually my design does make sense: it is still technically a bit of a caricature but it makes somewhat more sense: the engine bay is bigger, or rather it is proportionately big enough.

Who said it had to be big?

I fear that if I get into the nitty gritty of why I like what I like in a tank design, this thread may get off topic and never return.

No worries, you asked for input and got it. If you don't agree that's your call.

...So I asked them about the Nids looking like the Aliens and they said "yeah when we first came out with them, the Aliens franchise sued us. We won by proving that we had chagned the original design by at least 25%, which is what copyright law requires." And so, people like me and Mort Mort will not get sued.

What he told you was incorrect then and still is.

The %age change thing is one of the most common mistaken beliefs about copyright. To quote directly from the source:

There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work.

I think you're safe anyway - anyone selling stuff that's potentially compatible with the Warhammer universe (and there are of course many already) isn't infringing on their IP unless they specifically copy a unique motif or enough of the piece for it to be recognisably a direct rip.

Einion

 

[Phrawgg]

Okay, fair enough. But I took as my starting point what you said in your opening post, "...a lot of what exists in the scifi-28mm range, as far as vehicles, go... make no sense aesthetically or technically. Some of them are exaggerated, some of them are ridiculous." All of which is true and very obvious to a fan of hard SF.

If you want to go full-on away from this - which is what I thought you wanted - then one has to look past the present-day playbook for what makes a tank/AFV. But given the market it makes sense not to go that far because what 'looks right' sells, irrespective of whether it actually is technically viable or believable for the period!


Who said it had to be big?


No worries, you asked for input and got it. If you don't agree that's your call.


What he told you was incorrect then and still is.

The %age change thing is one of the most common mistaken beliefs about copyright. To quote directly from the source:


I think you're safe anyway - anyone selling stuff that's potentially compatible with the Warhammer universe (and there are of course many already) isn't infringing on their IP unless they specifically copy a unique motif or enough of the piece for it to be recognisably a direct rip.

Einion

You’re right, I did go there. I forgot. I didn’t realize the can of worms I was opening. I would like to discuss this with you however. Should I start another thread?

I will say this though about my design decisions: If I were to have a gallery show of my fine art work or any of my work, it would be called “If I ran the show”. What I like to do is tweak existing designs, unless I am doing fine art in which case it is my answer to what other people have made, stuff that doesn’t satisfy me. If I were making something that made total sense mechanically, it would be different of course. I think what I’m going for is something that merely makes more sense than GW or Mort. More sense in the context of retro designs.

As far as I am concerned, design is a statement of a place in one’s learning development. One’s take on aesthetics is ever changing thing as one progresses through life. I am not wedded to it. However this is one design, which, even with some tweaking, will fill the niche I am after. I am designing it to satisfy me, rather than the market. It just so happens that frequently what satisfies me, satisfies other people too.

What was incorrect about what the games workshop rep told me?

Thanks for getting that information about the law. I do not foresee any copyright problems with GM given what my design is like. I will not copy anything they do since I don’t particularly like it. My parents have a paperweight with the following inscription on it: “I’m not going to make the same mistakes my parents made; I’m going to make my own!” precisely. That is the best anyone can hope for 8>D

 

[ollieholmes]

So how do Forge World do it? Injection?

I believe Forgeworlds stuff is hand poured and then put into a pressure pot to remove the air, certainly it looks like it is.

 

[Phrawgg]

Interesting. I expect they are making new molds every 3 pours or something like that. Maybe when i get my things printed, I should get a couple of copies as well so i can make a gang mold.

Another question: how fast do miniatures sell? With RC car bodies, if they are good, they sell awfully quick. A guy I know made an RC body of a 1986 Toyota 4runner and the 100 casts he had in stock sold out in less than two weeks! I expect miniatures don't sell that fast. Well, unless you're in Britain, where these things seem to be more popular. In America, miniatures, war games, and RPG's seem to be a bit on the DL. Also we have the whole debt thing going on. I expect this will be a "don't quit your day job" kind of thing for a long time. Am I right?

 

[ollieholmes]

Interesting. I expect they are making new molds every 3 pours or something like that. Maybe when i get my things printed, I should get a couple of copies as well so i can make a gang mold.

Another question: how fast do miniatures sell? With RC car bodies, if they are good, they sell awfully quick. A guy I know made an RC body of a 1986 Toyota 4runner and the 100 casts he had in stock sold out in less than two weeks! I expect miniatures don't sell that fast. Well, unless you're in Britain, where these things seem to be more popular. In America, miniatures, war games, and RPG's seem to be a bit on the DL. Also we have the whole debt thing going on. I expect this will be a "don't quit your day job" kind of thing for a long time. Am I right?

Id allow about 15-20 casts from each mould. I know a few makers check every cast and at the first sig of degrading they bin the mould and make a new one.

As for money its not a huge industry, you will not make millions from it ever but it can make you a comftable earning. Yes theres a credit cruch going on but a couple of models a month is alot cheaper than say a months worth of golf or something. Unless you hit on something amasingly popular i doubt youd sell out in 2 weeks but then again you never know. Also dont forget to promote yourself at every chance you get, go along to shows, have a website, talk to people and tell them what you do, email freinds a link to your site as they might know of someone whos interested, talk to distributors. You never know that one product you think will never sell could fly out of the window. I make my own decal sheets for plastic model aircraft and the two sheets that i though would struggle due to the high cost are flying out of the window where as the cheaper sheet is slow.

 

[Phrawgg]

Thanks for the business tips, Ollie!

A while back I got the ball running with talking to a local game shop/scifi bookstore manager and he was receptive to selling my models whenever I was able to produce them, based on the drawings alone. I dunno, some people are more easy to impress than others but hey, if he wants to sell my thing, I'm not picky!

About the number of casts from each mold, the rubber I use, that the casting services i might do business with use, is reputed to be good for about 30 copies. What do you think? Trust the numbers? no?

 

[ollieholmes]

Thanks for the business tips, Ollie!

A while back I got the ball running with talking to a local game shop/scifi bookstore manager and he was receptive to selling my models whenever I was able to produce them, based on the drawings alone. I dunno, some people are more easy to impress than others but hey, if he wants to sell my thing, I'm not picky!

About the number of casts from each mold, the rubber I use, that the casting services i might do business with use, is reputed to be good for about 30 copies. What do you think? Trust the numbers? no?

The first thing i would ask is what is their quality control like? Do they check every cast or do they just go and go untill the moulds knackerd? Remember that your name is on the product and you want to build a good name for yourself by providing high quality products. Maybe ask if you can visit them and actualy see how many they cast from a mould and if the quality remains before they make another mould.

As for the local store owner id never trust someone untill they stumped up the money for an order. People will say lots of good things but if they dont come to anything then theres no point. The problem there is telling when they are trying to be helpfull or just a pain. Do your own market reaserch, look at competitors products, work out the pluses and minuses of them and see where you can do better. Then once you know where you can do better let people know that, promote the good things about your product.

 

[Phrawgg]

good points. Perhaps what I should do is have my first 30 copies made and number each one so i can track the degradation of hte mold.

As for the store owners, good point. it hadn't occured to me. "good will" in capitalism is often not worth the paper it is written upon.

 

[ollieholmes]

good points. Perhaps what I should do is have my first 30 copies made and number each one so i can track the degradation of hte mold.

As for the store owners, good point. it hadn't occured to me. "good will" in capitalism is often not worth the paper it is written upon.

If the moulding company is reasonably close d ask if you can go and see them at work and watch the process. If not id ask lots of questions. A bit of comman sense goes along way with these things. Rememeber at the end of the day its going to be your name on the product and you want people to assosiate your name with high quality.