How much is it going to cost?

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by uberdark
3 home owned used car dealerships went out of business today in my town. they cant get any credit and they wont be able to open again for at least a month if the tax plan passes.

everybody is tightening their asses up real tight here. heck i didnt even buy that warbike set from forgeworld i wanted....i had to settle for GW\'s warbikes instead. lollollollol

I don\'t know if this is a bad thing. I mean the car dealerships, not the warbikes (sorry you had to settle, FW stuff is beautiful!). I think the current crisis is due to lenders taking insane risks on making credit available to people and business they had no real reasonable chance of getting a return from.

Maybe I\'m being draconian here but if less of these troubled business got credit, racked it up and then closed there doors instead of just closing their doors in the first place maybe the situation would be better.

I\'m no expert, but I just see dark things on the horizon here up north because I see a lot of DUMB people getting a bunch of money for their failing business\' and taking equity out of their over valued homes to buy plasma TV\'s and new trucks. Isn\'t that sort of how the US downturn started?

Like I said, no expert at all, but I do think that we have to blame the people who did the borrowing as well as the companies that lent them the cash.

 

[Avelorn]

We have an economy driven by consumption. It relies on people making non-rational decisions! Being dumb that is.

@Ubie: FW Warbikes? For Orks? Where? :drool:

Sorry you were saying?

 

[uberdark]

Originally posted by Avelorn
We have an economy driven by consumption. It relies on people making non-rational decisions! Being dumb that is.

@Ubie: FW Warbikes? For Orks? Where? :drool:

Sorry you were saying?

they were only available at gamesday UK.

here are some pics.

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33843

 

[Avelorn]

Thanks, seems like they will be released soon though... I will definitely buy them then, I need some Nob bikers for the army.

Oh back on topic.

I have to echo one question. What would be Plan B? To let the financial sector break down making the most effective pension insurance ammunition and potatoes as a friend put it.

 

[pariah72]

The sad fact is that there is no other solution. The problem is too big for anything else. Though I don\'t claim to be an economist of any sort.

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by Avelorn
Thanks, seems like they will be released soon though... I will definitely buy them then, I need some Nob bikers for the army.

Oh back on topic.

I have to echo one question. What would be Plan B? To let the financial sector break down making the most effective pension insurance ammunition and potatoes as a friend put it.

Your friend is way wrong! If your friend had bother to educate himself he would know the real shopping list for economic collapse is....

-Compund Bow
-Wrist mounted bow
-Sawn off shotgun (Shells not required)
-All the gasoline in 5 gallon jerry\'s you can get
-A sports car with a V8 and a blower

Also good to have, but not required...

-Hockey Mask
-Football pads
-Studded leather jacket
-Armor plated groin cover

That should get you through if things truly get worse.

....Anyways, this will pass eventually. I feel for the people who wil lbe hit hardest by the damage. However, all this financial damage was caused by companies taking insane risks with money people gave them. It sucks a ton to lose money this way (And as I stated, I have lost some. More than a little actually) when you think you\'re being responsible and making good decisions only to have them come back at you and rubbed in your face.

Thing is if those investments HAD paid off most of us posting here would be laughing like madmen. I have always played my investments very conservatively and made sure a bunch has been in low interest zero risk things lie GIC\'s because I do not have the heart to lose it all in one economic slump.

We\'ll be fine I think. If we had money to invest we can probably count ourselves amongst the lucky few anyway. I am actually worried more for about 5-10 years time when the economic boom my region has steadied and the streets are flooded with unskilled labor that is used to getting 20$+ an hour for swinging a shovel or a hammer.

 

[Avelorn]

@Scott: lol

Well this is not because of a few bad decisions were made by a restricted number of people. It is systematic and built into the system. it will happen again.

How many jobs do you think will be around for \"skilled labour\" then?

We\'ll see in fifty years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoi1MSGu64

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

One word...

Revolution


It\'s about damn time for one...

 

[ScottRadom]

I disagree to some extent...

I don\'t think these problems are caused by the same things that caused our problems 10, 20 or 50 years ago. I think we as a civilization learn from our mistakes. Mostly we learn how to make new, better, bigger mistakes.

I think we are going to see the \"system\" of credit lending and investment evolve. That is if the US government does make it\'s presence felt in the market by buying out some of these debts. I will make the disclaimer again that I am no expert and my opinions and views are not neccesarily the most informed.... but....

I do feel the way this market has fallen is the result of a select few setting the policy of large companies and going for the big all or nothing style gamble. Just imagine if some of these investments had actually made good! These individuals were allowed to operate in relative autonamy because they were/are free market companies that so long as they follow all legislation are governed by their investors, thay are steered by the almighty buck that was provided by investors of their own free will and not a mandatory tax deduction. If the bail out proceeds then all that changes and the Government has indeed stepped in and the one entity that plays for keeps is the US government. Their will have to be (reminder, I am a butcher, not a banker or smart dude) government issued rules for who can borrow, who can invest, where the money will go etc. etc.

So I think the wild free market economy days may be trimmed down if the US steps in and becomes an enormous wall street entity. That is if I follow the buyout plan correctly.

Maybe it\'ll be like RoboCop with OCP! Best line ever \"Everybody can buy OCP stock, what could be more democratic then that?\".

Well that\'s my line of thinking. I don\'t think I need to start walling off the homestead yet. I think the west comes back from this.

But I still think we need to consider the viability of taking the money from Oprah! C\'mon people, let\'s get behind this resolution!

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Greed caused this mess.. There\'s only so many times you can sell something that\'s worthless to someone else before everyone figures out its not worth anything..

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design
Greed caused this mess.. There\'s only so many times you can sell something that\'s worthless to someone else before everyone figures out its not worth anything..

I do not understand religion, communism or many, many things, but I do understand greed.

I find it unfair to blame greed or anything sinister for this affair when simple negligence and idiocy will work just fine. I think (Someone correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of these lending firms were young and inexperienced as opposed to more time trusted and weathered corporations.

But what is wrong with greed anywayÉ I want more, much more for myself. I want more money, more stuff, a bigger TV, comfortable stuff. Better brushes, more paint, more figs. Thing is I am willing to go out and get it for myself, and part of doing that is trusting your hard earned money to people who (Theoretically) know more about making long term investment decisions than yourself.

I think this mess has been caused by poor investment choices on personal and corporate levels. A lot of the mortgage debt comes from people buying houses when traditional lending institutions would not touch them. Greedy people wanting to get into a home ownership position before traditional (and perhaps justified) lending policies told them they were not ready yet. So they went elsewhere.

But still, I love greed. It makes sense. DragonForge, you run a business (which I will be buying some of your extraordinary bases from soon!), do you not want for your business to become more profitable, more inventory, and generally biggerÉ That is greed, and it just makes sense. Greed is such a nasty word, and maybe one of the seven deadly sins sure, but I think it is still a healthy ideologoy to provide more for yourself and your family etc.

Not attacking you DragonForge, I just feel like someone needs to stick up for the much maligned Mr. Greed!

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by ScottRadom

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design
Greed caused this mess.. There\'s only so many times you can sell something that\'s worthless to someone else before everyone figures out its not worth anything..

I do not understand religion, communism or many, many things, but I do understand greed.

I find it unfair to blame greed or anything sinister for this affair when simple negligence and idiocy will work just fine. I think (Someone correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of these lending firms were young and inexperienced as opposed to more time trusted and weathered corporations.

But what is wrong with greed anywayÉ I want more, much more for myself. I want more money, more stuff, a bigger TV, comfortable stuff. Better brushes, more paint, more figs. Thing is I am willing to go out and get it for myself, and part of doing that is trusting your hard earned money to people who (Theoretically) know more about making long term investment decisions than yourself.

I think this mess has been caused by poor investment choices on personal and corporate levels. A lot of the mortgage debt comes from people buying houses when traditional lending institutions would not touch them. Greedy people wanting to get into a home ownership position before traditional (and perhaps justified) lending policies told them they were not ready yet. So they went elsewhere.

But still, I love greed. It makes sense. DragonForge, you run a business (which I will be buying some of your extraordinary bases from soon!), do you not want for your business to become more profitable, more inventory, and generally biggerÉ That is greed, and it just makes sense. Greed is such a nasty word, and maybe one of the seven deadly sins sure, but I think it is still a healthy ideologoy to provide more for yourself and your family etc.

Not attacking you DragonForge, I just feel like someone needs to stick up for the much maligned Mr. Greed!

Ive actually tried to write something three times.. but Im not a financial guy so Ill try to keep this simple as Im a simple guy.. Selling someone something you know very well that in 3-4 years they wont be able to afford it because to talked them into buying something beyond their means only because you could offer them a sweet deal and then running to the bank with your fat profit check is in my definition greed. Yeah many had no business buying $300,000 homes when they could only afford a $100,000 home but more than anything buying a home is the #1 American Dream for many.

That probably still doesn\'t make much sense but oh well didnt come here to argue.

I have no issues with making an honest profit, heck I want to make a lot of money myself, but Ill do it honestly.. I wont take an order for $100.00 from you and give you $50.00 worth of product and tell you..hey its all there..count it again.

Now go buy some bases.. Help get the economy going one person at a time

 

[ScottRadom]

Ive actually tried to write something three times.. but Im not a financial guy so Ill try to keep this simple as Im a simple guy.. Selling someone something you know very well that in 3-4 years they wont be able to afford it because to talked them into buying something beyond their means only because you could offer them a sweet deal and then running to the bank with your fat profit check is in my definition greed. Yeah many had no business buying $300,000 homes when they could only afford a $100,000 home but more than anything buying a home is the #1 American Dream for many.

That probably still doesn\'t make much sense but oh well didnt come here to argue.

I have no issues with making an honest profit, heck I want to make a lot of money myself, but Ill do it honestly.. I wont take an order for $100.00 from you and give you $50.00 worth of product and tell you..hey its all there..count it again.

Now go buy some bases.. Help get the economy going one person at a time

Actually it makes great sense, and I agree with you to the extent of it\'s something I would never be a part of (knowingly). I still put most of the balme on the homeowner as THEY need to know that they\'ll ne the one holding the shortest end of it in 3-4 years. These credit companies that make bad decisions possible are certainly operating out of financial greed, feeding off the dumb greedy people themselves. My only problem with all this is when greed and stupidity marry, have kids, and those kids grow up (faster and faster these days....) and turn into these financial crises we seem to be having more and more of.

When I invest, only the smallest portion goes into high risk/reward options. Why did these companies have their near entire value in these high risk NINJA loans? I think it\'s stupidity more than it is greed.

You\'re right, it\'s the ultimate dream for most to get the white picket fence and an area they can call their own, but some self restraint needs to be shown by the consumer. Just because we CAN purchase something doesn\'t mean we should, especuially if it\'s a something that is about 10 the annual salary of some of these people.

Speaking of, I\'m off to by some bases....

 

[darklord]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design
One word...

Revolution


It\'s about damn time for one...

can i join in, been wanting to do one for a while,
anyone want to be on the council of eldars?

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design
Greed caused this mess.. There\'s only so many times you can sell something that\'s worthless to someone else before everyone figures out its not worth anything..

I think you are quite right. Corporations are self serving, self interested and incapable of showing concern for people or other corporations. They have one goal that takes precedence over all others and that is simply to make as much profit as possible without regard to consequences for others. They are even required by law to do this.

So I don\'t think it\'s really a surprise that something that is only self serving and essentially selfish - corporations - lent money out to people who possibly couldn\'t afford it. The concern of the corporation is profit not whether people might default on payments (these corporations must have thought that there was big profit to be made by doing this).

Indeed there was big profit. Instead of funding mortgage lending from deposits from investors (which limited the amount of mortgages that could be given out) banks moved to a new model were they sold on the mortgages to bond markets meaning it\'s much easier to give more mortgage lending and thus more profit. In other words sell the bond of mortgages on to someone else and it becomes their problem (this is a typical feature of a corporation - to push costs onto others to maximise their own profits. Pushed on costs are known to economists as externalities). This new method got great profits for banks and they pushed for more mortgages. As corporations are self serving and take no account of effects on others this situation continued (profits were being made and that is the main rule of corporations). Then interest rates went up, home owners defaulted, repossessions started, the value of these bonds fell. Banks panicked because suddenly it wasn\'t something that could be pushed onto someone else and started to cost individual banks and they became worried about lending to each other.

I think it\'s down to the nature of corporations, their inherent faults rather than anything else that has caused this. Corporations if they were people would be impossible to live with, self serving, immoral, blind to the consequences and effects on others. We let corporations behave like this when we would not tolerate it from people, and then wonder why it all goes wrong.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by darklord
anyone want to be on the council of eldars?

So you\'d want to be a Pointy Eared Interior Decorator in space?

@S.Marbo, Thanks for the explanation.

 

[darklord]

if the post comes with 10 virgins a month and a large black forest gateau

 

[airhead]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design... Selling someone something you know very well that in 3-4 years they wont be able to afford it because to talked them into buying something beyond their means...

You were correct up to there. It was because the Fed was telling the lending institution that they \'needed\' to be making those loans, providing them maps of neighborhoods that needed more loans. All to get everyone on board with the \"American Dream\" of homeownership.

Lending to people that had no clue about home ownership, insufficient funding and would probably default on the loan was stupid, but it was not the lending instiutions problem - upon completing the loan application, it was turned over to Freddie or Fannie and was now the Government\'s (read our) problem.

 

[ScottRadom]

Mr. Marbo- Well put.

My feeling is that corporations are what they\'ve always been. They are absolutely only out for themselves and in it to make as much money as they can. Like I said earlier I can appreciate that, and I can understand that. When a business that we can recognize cares more about their bottom line then the customers financial long term forecast offers to lend you money, shouldn\'t that serve as a warning to the consumer?

I understand now (I think) how the problem got so big so fast. It really snowballed in no time at all. I still blame the consumer for going after things that they couldn\'t afford. I don\'t know about you guys but I get about a dozen credit card offers a week, all trying to get me to sign up for up to 50,000$ in credit. Just because we CAN doesn\'t mean we should, right?

Corporations operating out of self intersest/greed makes sense and is okay by me as it usually means they make smart decisions. It\'s still looking like more stupid then greedy trying to make money from such high risk investments. The fact that banks were able to sell off their mortgages to other banks just makes me feel like it was stupidity on a grand scale spread from bank to bank.

So I still blame the moron consumer firstly, and the moron banks secondly. And if the bail out plan proceeds and it is spread out amongst taxpayers the consumers who\'ve been in a state of bankruptcy and foreclosure likely won\'t be in an income position to help pay off the newfound government debt.

 

[wiccanpony]

Originally posted by Dragon Forge Design
One word...

Revolution


It\'s about damn time for one...

wait! wait! let me get my knitting needleslol