I HATE Epoxy!

[kathrynloch]

Hey guys and gals! How\'s everyone doing? I\'ve been lurking a lot.

As many of you know, I\'ve been struggling with hyperthyroidism and the hand tremors have made it quite difficult, actually impossible, to paint miniatures.

Medication is helping but not enough for that uber fine detail. I feel like a dart board when it comes to needles and blood tests.

I have been able to work on my larger scale horses - so that\'s good news! :bouncy: Basically, they are the traditional size 1:9 scale.

I don\'t know how many of you are familiar with Breyer models...maybe you have a horse loving sister, girl-friend, or wife...who might collect or have them. We also have independent sculptors who release their own models on a small scale...having 500 models made is a HUGE run.

Anyway, one of the major jobs in the horse painting world, is prepping. You know, the same thing we do with our minis to get them ready for paint, remove seams, fill holes, etc.

Well, prepping a traditional - or even smaller - Breyer or resin horse is actually pretty tough. And most people don\'t want to deal with it. Artists, who have commissions, just like in the miniature world would rather paint than prep. So, the job of prepping only can be very lucrative...if you are good.

Many of you might remember hollering at me for removing mold lines...or lack thereof...on my minis. lol I\'ve gotten better at this and I\'m actually pretty anal on my horse resins.

A friend of mine asked me to prep an old mold Breyer. This is a paying gig, and it\'s actually something I can do well. The problem with the old mold Breyers is that they are infamous for seams...and sometimes just bad molding all together. Quality control was something that was not in their hand book.

In this case, I\'m working on an old mold Breyer foal that the mold apparently slipped while casting. I\'ve got a major seam split on the back and a very uneven...like a 16th of an inch mold line on the belly. Now, I can fix a lot of this with epoxy but it\'s kicking my butt.

I started with Green Stuff, in my miniature work but have recently changed to P3. I know epoxy is infamous for sticking everywhere but where you want it to. I use water on my fingers and tools...but this time...:flame:

I can\'t get it to work to save my life.

Basically, I can only get a major blob down but as I work, the water from my tool gets onto the model and nothing sticks...except where I don\'t want it to.

This thing has almost gone through the wall a couple of times.

How do you guys sculpt with this stuff?

It\'s really driving me nuts because not too long ago, I used P3 on a war demon I assembled and it worked just fine. It\'s not like I\'m a neophyte using this stuff. Is it just because it\'s not my model and for someone else?

A lot of folks in the model horse world use Apoxy Sculpt for this kind of thing...anyone have experience using that?

I\'m about ready to shoot the damn thing and call it dead. lol

Cheers,
Kat

 

[dogfacedboy uk1]

can\'t say i have that trouble at all. but then i only use milliputt, greenstuff and super sculpey firm. It becomes less sticky over time - are you leaving it to long before you apply it? Have you sanded the surface/keyed it to help grip?? Sorry I can\'t be much help.

dfb

 

[kathrynloch]

Thanks but Super Sculpey Firm requires baking to solidify...not going to do that with a plastic Breyer.

And the longer I let it sit, of course, the less problem it becomes but that\'s a bit counter-intuitive.

I\'ve been trying to work with it the more it sets up...but it usually goes backwards.

How does one keep the water on the sculpting tool (I dunk my sculpting tool in water then tap it on a piece of paper) from getting on the adhesion point?

Cheers,
Kat

 

[Thomgirl]

I\'ve only ever used greenstuff as well, but I found that water really sucks for the majority of work with the stuff. I switched to vaseline which is 1000 times better. I have to warn though it comes with some con as well. You need to make sure that whatever you want it to stick to does not have vaseline on it, not even a trace or it will be a nightmare trying to get it to stick. But, with this in mind, it works great. You just also need to sure to give it a good wash after it\'s cured though in dish soap to remove it so paint sticks fine as well. Now I\'ve also heard a good happy medium is saliva (really weird, I know) but I hear it has the nice coating effects of vaseline, but the clean drying effects of water. I also hear of some folks using talc, but I don\'t know anything about it.

Hope this helps! I used to be a breyer collector and am still a huge horse nut so I think it\'s pretty cool that you work with the models.

cheers!

 

[freakinacage]

i\'m with thomgirl, make sure it\'s washed. but i would use talc to stop it from sticking to your hands
also if the gap is that bad, i would send it back

 

[DXM]

Very simple, Place a few drop of Super Glue and then place the putty down.
It gives enough grip to the putty hold in place so you can smooth the putty.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

I will sand or take a knife and cross hatch the place where I\'m going to putty to give it something to \'grab\' on to. If I\'m going to do something small I will drill a small hole or two for the same reason.

 

[freakinacage]

similar to dxm, if you add a dab of superglue and then sprinkle with baking soda, it dries very quickly with a nice rough texture that the putty grabs on to. this is great for armatures

 

[Roy Rogers]

I always \"score\" the surface that I wish the green stuff to adhere to. Cut thin slice\'s onto the surface, between cracks, and seam\'s to give the putty of your choice a chance to grab on before you start pushing, and pulling it to shape.
I have always used water to keep the \"sticky\" factor to a minimum. Remember too that if it is a deep space where you need to fill, that a few layer\'s of putty might be needed. I.E. Let one dry overnight, then apply the second. Also the weather has alot to do with drying time, sticky factor, and working time.

Plus, and this may sound strange, but I will usually moisturize my hands with a mostly chemical free, and low oil content hand lotion It helps the greenstuff not stick to your \"dry\" skin. Remember that anything dry( your skin) will attract anything with moisture (greenstuff) very quickly. And it seem\'s to help in the dept of smoothing out those pesky fingerprint\'s that appear in the finished putty product.

Hope that helps

 

[Einion]

I don\'t know what the P3 stuff is like but GS is not ideally suited to surface filling even though it\'s widely used for this, especially with minis; I\'d highly recommend MagicSculp or Apoxie Sculpt for this kind of job.

Originally posted by kathrynloch
How does one keep the water on the sculpting tool (I dunk my sculpting tool in water then tap it on a piece of paper) from getting on the adhesion point?

One way it to not use water as a lubricant! Over the years I\'ve developed my methods so as to require a minimum of lubrication anyway, but it\'s worth comparing with talc, moisturiser, conditioner and the old standby, saliva (don\'t put the tools directly in your mouth though).

Einion

P.S. Just re-read the first post and something occurred to me. I nearly never use anything on my fingers, certainly not water which will just tend to dissolve a bit of the clay-like putties and leave a slurry residue of the stuff all over the fingertips. You might be having trouble because you\'re doing this, rather than despite doing this.

If you mix with your bare hands wash them thoroughly afterwards and then, as much as possible, try not to touch the putty with your fingers - use tools to pick up and apply the stuff. You don\'t have to be too anal about not touching putties, but work towards getting into the habit of using tools for manipulating them.

But if you want or need to use your fingers extensively, try talc instead of water.

 

[kathrynloch]

Cool guys, thanks!

On top of everything, I had internet trouble this weekend. :cussing:

An interesting note, it seems Breyer plastic does not play well with greenstuff or P3 at all. I managed to do a small bit, let it dry, and went back the next day. Unfortunately, I was able to pop it off quite easily with my fingernail.

I\'m going to try Apoxie Sculpt - I know that works with Breyer plastic.

But thanks everyone for your responses. These are fantastic tips! I\'ll definitely use them in the future.

Oh, Einion, except for kneading and first applying the greenstuff, I do mostly use a sculpting tool.

Thanks again everyone!!!

:bouncy:

Cheers,
Kat

 

[airhead]

Just brainstorming:

Have you tried milliput? I know it sticks to nearly everything. And you can wet your finger and smooth it out once you have the area filled.

But what everyone is saying about a mechanical aid to adhesion is good too... scoring or roughing up the area to receive the putty.

What are the horses made of? Casting resin? Injected plastic?

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by airhead
Have you tried milliput? I know it sticks to nearly everything.

Including fingers Depending on type and freshness the amount it sticks to skin can really be excessive.

This is one of the major reasons to prefer alternatives (which have other advantages too). Most any choice is a tradeoff in some respect, but I think there\'s a clear winner when it comes to Milliput v. MagicSculp - MS has a longer shelf life, is easier and faster to mix (especially in cold weather), handles better and is more versatile; plus it\'s cheaper on top of everything. Makes the choice a no-brainer for me.

Einion

 

[Verm1s]

I started with Green Stuff, in my miniature work but have recently changed to P3.

Recently changed to whatnow?

Basically, I can only get a major blob down but as I work, the water from my tool gets onto the model and nothing sticks...except where I don\'t want it to.

I know that feeling. My own fix was to lightly wet a piece of blister foam and dab the tool on that. There\'s nothing to stop you using water if you\'re set on it, just not so much of it. Damp, not soaking. Simples. And ditto on the scoring/sanding.

On the other hand...

Remember that anything dry( your skin) will attract anything with moisture (greenstuff)

This sounds too close to advice I saw elsewhere, that you had to wet greenstuff to stop it drying out. Nope. The polymers in GS repel water. (does it sound like I know what I\'m talking about?) Water\'s got nothing to do with it, except as a lubricant. I don\'t doubt the moisturiser helps in that way, or to smooth rough skin, but I doubt it\'s because your fingers otherwise absorb GS-water.

Lastly: yeah, I use apoxie sculpt. Luvly stuff. Link.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Verm1s
Lastly: yeah, I use apoxie sculpt. Luvly stuff. Link.

Where\'s the love for MagicSculp?

And question, you mention that \"One small problem with green stuff is that it goes ‘stale’ after a few months.\" I haven\'t found this at all with the new two-roll pack - four years on and it\'s just the same as the first time I used it.

Einion

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Einion
Where\'s the love for MagicSculp?

My favourite putty!

 

[kathrynloch]

Originally posted by airhead
Just brainstorming:

Have you tried milliput? I know it sticks to nearly everything. And you can wet your finger and smooth it out once you have the area filled.

I haven\'t tried it because it sounds so much like Green Stuff.

What are the horses made of? Casting resin? Injected plastic?

It\'s some funky injected plastic. It\'s infamous for never being able to glue unless you use super glue and baking soda. In fact, the older horses values can be determined by the type of plastic used. Back in the 70\'s during the oil crisis, Breyer couldn\'t get their regular white plastic. So they got other stuff and had to actually \"paint\" on the markings - where as previously, the markings were just the white plastic. The ones where the markings are painted on are called Chalkies and collectors go nutso over them.

Originally posted by Verm1s

Recently changed to whatnow?

P3 - it\'s a two part epoxy - but the rolls are separate. :lol I thought I\'d give it a shot.

Lastly: yeah, I use apoxie sculpt. Luvly stuff. Link.

Bookmarked! Thank you! I just got the Apoxie Sculpt and am hoping to try it this weekend.

Depending on how the Apoxie Sculpt works, I just may try the Magic Sculpt.

We\'ll see.

Thanks again, everyone!

Cheers,
Kat

 

[Verm1s]

Where\'s the love for MagicSculp?

I might love it once I manage to make a dent in the big tubs of apoxie I got years ago.

And question, you mention that \"One small problem with green stuff is that it goes ‘stale’ after a few months.\" I haven\'t found this at all with the new two-roll pack - four years on and it\'s just the same as the first time I used it.

Ah... That\'s interesting. I admit I\'m going by first-hand experience with the ribbon format (same old story - blister pack sitting for ages on a GW rack) and hearsay (Andy Foster @ Heresy Minis storing everything in the freezer). I\'ve used the two-roll set meself but like that write-up says, I almost always mix something else into it - partly to counteract \'staleness\'.
I guess I could buy a fresh tube and stick it in a cupboard for four years, but for now I\'ll take you at your word. D\'you mind if I update with that piece of info?

I haven\'t tried it because it sounds so much like Green Stuff.

Oh, no. TBH I don\'t like using it myself, much; but I\'d say it\'s at the other end of some kind of sculpting putty spectrum, compared to green stuff.

Bookmarked!

That sounds like granting it more worth than it\'s due, but ta.

Depending on how the Apoxie Sculpt works, I just may try the Magic Sculpt.

I think Einion knows better, but from what I hear they should be fairly similar.
Argh... Hearsay and first-hand experience again. I\'m too much of a stickler for the latter. I think I\'ll go get some Magic Sculp myself, sooner rather than later.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Originally posted by Ritual

Originally posted by Einion
Where\'s the love for MagicSculp?

My favourite putty!

:beer::beer: 5 pounds of the stuff for the price of a few ounces of green stuff..............nuff said. Plus, it\'s a breeze to work with!

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by kathrynloch
I haven\'t tried it because it sounds so much like Green Stuff.

Totally different Kat - GS is the most waxy or plasticy of the common putties right? Well Milliput is the most clay-like.

Originally posted by kathrynloch
Depending on how the Apoxie Sculpt works, I just may try the Magic Sculpt.

They\'re somewhat similar so if you get familiar with one it helps with the other.

Originally posted by Verm1s
I might love it once I manage to make a dent in the big tubs of apoxie I got years ago.

I had the same problem with MagicSculp

AS and MS make for an interesting side-by-side comparison as they\'re similar but different enough that it\'s easy to have a preference for one over the other.

One of the reasons I wanted to try MS is specifically so I wouldn\'t have to make blends as I\'d heard it was so nice straight from the pack; it\'s been likened a few times to a mix of Milliput and Kneadatite, but without the hassle of mixing the two and then blending them. And actually it\'s better than that blend overall (as is Apoxie Sculpt IMO).

Originally posted by Verm1s
Ah... That\'s interesting. I admit I\'m going by first-hand experience with the ribbon format (same old story - blister pack sitting for ages on a GW rack) and hearsay (Andy Foster @ Heresy Minis storing everything in the freezer).

Yeah, know what that\'s like! Never bought a ribbon myself that hadn\'t gone off a bit already on the shelf. Was delighted when I first saw the new packaging with its promise of a longer shelf life.

Originally posted by Verm1s
D\'you mind if I update with that piece of info?

Not at all.

Originally posted by Verm1s
Argh... Hearsay and first-hand experience again. I\'m too much of a stickler for the latter.

Only way to be sure. If you\'re only ordering a small amount consider getting one of the alternative colours like black to make judgement of fine detail a little easier.

Einion