I think I know why people think the new 40K sucks.

[Ebonbuddha]

I was working on an Iron hand’s army list when I noticed that marines couldn’t take a heavy weapon if they had a Razorback. It’s silly, but …whatever. Then I check to make sure my Master of the Forge can have a razorback. It’s not listed.
Do I understand this correctly? The only squads that can have a razorback or rhino are command squads and tactical squad?

 

[Twosoc]

If I remember rightly from a similar discussion I was having last week, I think the full ten man tactical squad can have a razorback but you can only transport six in it. You have to break it into combat squads before you can actually use it though. I think the six is to represent an independent character joining a combat squad or to get a whole command squad in

I can\'t remember if the combat squad has to start the game in it though. I\'m sure someone will set me straight if I\'m wrong though!

 

[Undave]

Twosoc is pretty much correct. Dedicated transports aren\'t all that dedicated any more. You can buy a unit of ten marines and a razorback, split the squad and carry one combat squad in the razor back or not bother to carry anything at all it\'s up to you. The transport can also be used to carry any of your units, not just the one that it was bought for. The one restriction is that the only thing it can have embarked at the start of the game is a component of the squad it was bought with.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

So, if i bought a master of the forge, he could use a razorback with four servitors?

 

[philologus]

40K sucks because by the time you figure this out you\'ll have to buy the newest rules or codex.

 

[pez5767]

How is it then that Storm Troopers in the new guard codex can begin mounted in the Valkyrie?

???

 

[Undave]

Originally posted by pez5767
How is it then that Storm Troopers in the new guard codex can begin mounted in the Valkyrie?

???

That\'s because Valkyries are a FA choice and not a dedicated transport.

EB, your Master of the Forge can use the Razorback but as far as I recall he can\'t begin the game embarked inside it. Someone\'s bound to come along and correct me on this...

 

[evil tendencies]

I\'ll take these one at a time...

- There are two types of transports in the game. Dedicated Transports are bought as upgrades for a squad, and this squad that bought it is the only unit allowed to start the game embarked in it.

- Other vehicles have transport capacities, but are NOT upgrades - these vehicles may start the game with any unit embarked on they that the owning player wishes, as long as there is space and no other special rules prohibiting this.

So then...

- You may buy a razorback as a dedicated transport for any unit that says you can in the unit entry (the entry with all the points values).

- The whole squad does not need to fit into their dedicated transport. Some people like taking Razorbacks as cheap, armed, moving pieces of cover for 10-man squads. Its a good strategy - and if you take casualties, it gives you a way to get out or redeploy.

- A Master of the Forge does not have any option to take a Razorback or any other dedicated transport, at least not that I could find. Neither does a unit of servitors. You could mount these guys in a Land Raider, though.

- A Valkyrie is a Fast Attack choice that has a transport capacity. Since it is not a dedicated transport, any unit (within the restrictions listed with the Valkyrie\'s description) may start the game embarked in it. Storm Troopers are good choices for this.

- The shortest time between new editions of codexes that I could find in the last twelve years was the three years between the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codex. It was 6 years between the 3rd edition and 4th edition rules, and 4 years between the 4th and 5th editions.

If it takes you 3 years (or more) to figure out Warhammer, I\'d say that\'s not a problem with the game.

 

[Undave]

P67 of the 40k rulebook basicaly says that the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it\'s deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with plus any attatched characters, although it deoesn\'t need to be deployed with anything in it. After this it can transport any friendly infantry unit that it has the capacity to hold.

To get your Master of the Forge into it you\'d have to deploy it empty with the MoF standing right next to it and then pile him in on the first turn. The Razorback can then move as normal.

This kind of represents the owning squad being carried to the fight inside and then disembarking once they reach the battle. The transport is then free to shuttle others about as it needs to.

 

[evil tendencies]

Originally posted by Undave
P67 of the 40k rulebook basicaly says that the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it\'s deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with plus any attatched characters, although it deoesn\'t need to be deployed with anything in it. After this it can transport any friendly infantry unit that it has the capacity to hold.

To get your Master of the Forge into it you\'d have to deploy it empty with the MoF standing right next to it and then pile him in on the first turn. The Razorback can then move as normal.

This kind of represents the owning squad being carried to the fight inside and then disembarking once they reach the battle. The transport is then free to shuttle others about as it needs to.

+1

...but make sure your opponents know about this before the game, or you might be getting some dirty looks.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

Ok. So, wouldn\'t it just be easier to let all troops and and HQs just buy the friggin\' thing?

The character can\'t even buy a rhino. He can buy a bike, but it kills the option of having a servitor. If i play them, I will try your strategy. But to be honest, I am losing interest in the game before I fully get back into it. These are the kind of tactics that killed the fun.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by evil tendencies
- The shortest time between new editions of codexes that I could find in the last twelve years was the three years between the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codex. It was 6 years between the 3rd edition and 4th edition rules, and 4 years between the 4th and 5th editions.

If it takes you 3 years (or more) to figure out Warhammer, I\'d say that\'s not a problem with the game.

You researched a response to sarcastic humor? Dude, get out of the house occasionally.

I\'d say if you have to have 5 or more revisions there IS Definitely a problem with the game.

 

[Zora]

Philologus - they don\'t HAVE to have 5 revisions to the rules.

They do it so they can make new minis for everybody to purchase, and to make people buy the $50 BASIC rulebook all over again.

 

[evil tendencies]

Originally posted by philologus

Originally posted by evil tendencies
- The shortest time between new editions of codexes that I could find in the last twelve years was the three years between the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codex. It was 6 years between the 3rd edition and 4th edition rules, and 4 years between the 4th and 5th editions.

If it takes you 3 years (or more) to figure out Warhammer, I\'d say that\'s not a problem with the game.

You researched a response to sarcastic humor? Dude, get out of the house occasionally.

I\'d say if you have to have 5 or more revisions there IS Definitely a problem with the game.

It must have been the nature of text that hid the humor. I\'ve heard this said seriously, many times. I was always curious, so I finally checked it out.

 

[Jericho]

The new versions aren\'t there to fix old problems, they\'re there to cause new ones and stimulate additional spending on the hobby (duh!). It\'s the same reason car companies make new models every year... they need to invent reasons for people to replace a perfectly good product with a newer and more expensive one.

re: the viability of 40k, I think the safe bet is to paint 40k models that you think are pretty and stick to Warhammer Fantasy. The game itself is 100x better; it\'s more challenging, more fun, and at least around here the guys who play are MUCH more laid back and good-natured.

I chalk this up to the fact that many gamers start with 40k and then in their maturity move on to Fantasy... so 40k is full of new people and some socially useless adults who like to beat up children without breaking the law.

 

[Aliengod3]

40k sucks because orks do not have a 4+ armor save

I also agree with Jericho. Fantasy does not have as many power gamers that are hell bent on power fists, power weapons, lascannons, plasma cannons, and anything else that negates armor saves. I was always told that 40k is a kids game while fantasy is a mans game. :beer:

 

[Jericho]

Well the powergamer issue is really something that plagues both games... it\'s really up to your local scene. Some of the Fantasy army books can be absolutely disgusting to play against (Vampire Counts, Dark Elves and Demons are usually considered to be the absolute worst offenders if people max them out).

So yeah I can\'t really say that the army lists are friendlier in Fantasy, but the people who play generally do tend to be easier to get along with.

 

[exilesjjb]

If you want a proper game with no power gaming at all try WAB the figures are a fraction of the price also.
(WAB = Warhammer ancient battles= WFB with out magic and a few tweeks)
simples:innocent:

 

[Jericho]

Is Warhammer Ancients still based around the old (4th edition IIRC) WHFB rules? It\'s been a while since I looked into that, but at times it\'s been an interesting option for alternatives to the everyday wargaming.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by evil tendencies

Originally posted by philologus

Originally posted by evil tendencies
- The shortest time between new editions of codexes that I could find in the last twelve years was the three years between the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codex. It was 6 years between the 3rd edition and 4th edition rules, and 4 years between the 4th and 5th editions.

If it takes you 3 years (or more) to figure out Warhammer, I\'d say that\'s not a problem with the game.

You researched a response to sarcastic humor? Dude, get out of the house occasionally.

I\'d say if you have to have 5 or more revisions there IS Definitely a problem with the game.

It must have been the nature of text that hid the humor. I\'ve heard this said seriously, many times. I was always curious, so I finally checked it out.

Fair enough.