Innovation in Fantasy thematics

[SIGIL]

I also posted this at the Reapermini forums but figured I would post it up here as well to see if there would be any variation in feedback.

Hello all I thought it might make for an interesting thread to discuss the ever monotonous ( al-though beloved ) tried and true thematics of contemporary fantasy versus more innovative \" alien thematics in fantasy.

Personally I thin I am getting bored with the concepts of Fantasy and it\'s denizons. Elves are always magical and sophisticated ( by and large ) and dwarves are always short bearded drunkards with HUGE axes, halflings always look like kids and orcs are always ugly and foul tempered. WHAT HAPPENED! I mean Tolkien was king of imagination right? But does that mean that in order to achieve success that a fantasy thematic has to be subject to Tolkien\'s vision to the point of being nearly indistinguishable.

I am not looking for thematics in Fantasy to become unrecognizable, I just want soemthing fresh and innovative. WHy can\'t Halflings be muscular? WHy can\'t a dwarf shave his beard and wear hides and furs? Why do Elves ALWAYS have to be all magnificent?

Also I am tired of the fantasy stand by thematics for classes as well. WIzards should nt ALWAYS be old, feeble, human and garbed in flowing robes. Warriors should not ALWAYS be muscular, young, wield swords and axes, and be clad in Plate mail. Barbarians do not have to all be Nordic or Celtic either. Thieves..... well they do kind of have to fit a certain physical criteria to do what they do, but why should they all be short and slight, clad in hooded cloaks and wield daggers? What about a flail? Great multipurpose tool there. What about a blowgun? QUiet, compact, easy to use, not half as cumbersome as that old crankdrawn crossbow, and the perfect concealed weapon for that Theif on the go in your life.

Why can\'t a wizard be an adept swordsman? WHy do they always lug around a crystal ball? WHy can they not wear armor,.......... or a pair of practical trousers and a tunic?





Anybody else feel this way or am I just off the wall?

 

[U5-Boubou]

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=2769

You\'ll find some \"beyond the fantasy laws\" minis..

 

[No Such Agency]

Why can\'t a wizard be an adept swordsman? WHy do they always lug around a crystal ball? WHy can they not wear armor,.......... or a pair of practical trousers and a tunic?

Because they want to look important? Seriously, good questions. I for one always enjoy a good \"genre-bending\", eg. non-human mages (the Chainmail Ravilla Half-Dragon mage is a good example), smarter or more civilized varieties of orcs (those Renaissance-costumed mercenary orcs - who makes those?), drunken, brawling elves and so on. Chronologically, the Tolkien thing is really just a blip, and I think one way to get past it is to start looking to the mythologies of other cultures.

 

[PF]

I am not looking for thematics in Fantasy to become unrecognizable...
Sigil,I\'m afraid you answer yourself to your question...
Tho I still have hope

 

[Tuubje]

Well you are right ofcourse, Tolkien set the tone for every other fantasy out there but....
Rackham does a fairly nice job of using old themes and making something new. Their race of wolfmen is an example of a new race which is original. Their orcs are a \"made\" race which is in background completely different from other fantasy orcs (they are civilised as early human civilizations in bronze age, they fight to survive, not because they like it).
Their elves we haven\'t seen yet, but from what i\'ve read in backgrounds they have a kind of elven aids, slowly killing them all.
They are not \"holier than thou\".

For the wizard thing, read some on the young Elminster by Ed greenwood
For comical fantasy read up on Discworld novels.

People do try to be original, but when everything has been done, it\'s difficult to stay original

 

[finn17]

Well...

I think Terry Pratchett has made a start

 

[kittykat23uk]

Rifts had loads of great critters/races in it, there was a short lived miniature line but nothing has been produced recently. That being said I think Rackham do a good job of introducing some non standard fantasy type armies.

Regards

Kat

 

[Sand Rat]

Hmm, this is a thought provoker. In part, the issue exists because for all its pretensions otherwise fantasy is a very conservative field of liturature. There is a formula that was pretty much established in the \"Golden Age\" of the 30\'s and 40\'s and things havent changed much since then. Good Guys are good, bad guys are bad and fair damsels are fair damsels to be rescued. Sure, there are a few exceptions to the formula - anything by Pratchett, while set in a fantasy world does take a different view of the genre entirely - elves are evil, dwarves really dont care about some issues, humans are humans; Grunts by Mary Gentley takes an entirely different view of the Orcish and halfling situation (complete with Halforc/halflings); Robert Asprin has a different take on wizards and a really decent explanation of why a wizard does magic or swings a sword but not both (Gandalf dont count here folks, cause techically he\'s not a wizard - the closet analogue I can come up with is he is an angel); theres also the God Slayer series by Reichart where you\'ve got dark elf wizards swinging swords. So the info is out there for the changes in the genre as a whole - however, then you run up against the thought that gamers, who by and large read fantasy are conservative - how many folks do you know that are still playing first ed D&D and hate the more recent editions? Until gamers ask for a change, the companies are going to go with the same old stuff.

 

[Aryanun]

I posted my answer at Reaper, but...

My orcs look more serpent/snake like than pig like (never did like the piggish look... wasn\'t mean and evil enough). They have snake-scale like black skin, thin, wide opening mouths, and thin slits for nostrils. They also have large bat-like ears and a cunning intelligence. My orcs aren\'t stupid but scary.

My drow are nearly albino/translucent skinned, to reflect how living underground affects pigmentation correctly. They have strange abilities unlike the standard drow and are more mystical than their sun-loving cousins.

Land-elves are in a wide variety, but reflect more the plant life of the world. Standard elves live in trees, have skin ranging from brown to green, and are chameleon-like in their environment. The only \"civilized\" elves are the Grey elves who actually build hidden cities of great complexity and they are incredibly secretive and hidden. I\'ve yet to use them in any game and no PC can be one (they just don\'t leave their homes).

Halflings are your standard Tolkienesque Hobbit. I like them.

I\'ve also got a race of bat-like shapeshifters. Not dopplegangers per se, but they\'re just weird and hard to explain without several pages.

Then there\'s the \"fairy folk.\" Pixies, nymphs, brownies.. I liked the brownies in Willow and kind of incorporated that into my mix. Pixies are more like strange, alien, cocoon-spinning butterflies and very much the pranksters.

Dwarves are highly intelligent stone-masons and weapon smiths. Most magic items come from dwarves in my world, not elves or human mages or gods. There are also various ranges of dwarves, from slender and short, like thin hobbits, to muscular and taller, like burley and husky humans.

Anyway, that\'s how I\'ve mixed my fantasy world up. There\'s more, but it\'s too much to get into.

My orcs tend to be my favorite change. They even have one group just called \"The Horde\" which tends to be a massive army swooping down to wreck havok and destruction. So far there isn\'t a single PC group who has tried to take The Horde on. I wonder why... lol

Cry Havok and Let Loose the Orcs of War !! :innocent:

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by Aryanun
My drow are nearly albino/translucent skinned, to reflect how living underground affects pigmentation correctly.

Heretic!!! We all know that drow are supposed to be black with white hair, not pale like good elves (harkens back to that whole Norse thing I believe (and even the good fey in Norse mythology werent that nice)). lol

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by steelcult
...harkens back to that whole Norse thing I believe (and even the good fey in Norse mythology werent that nice)). lol

Was ANYbody, really? That\'s one of the things I like about Norse mythology, there seems to be a mix of good and bad in almost everybody. More 3 dimensional, more human.

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by dauber22
Was ANYbody, really? That\'s one of the things I like about Norse mythology, there seems to be a mix of good and bad in almost everybody. More 3 dimensional, more human.

No, I dont think anyone was that good in the Norse Mythos - but the Fey were fell handed as it were - good or bad.

 

[beowulfthehunter]

well other types of Fantasy bending genres take a look at

Dragon Lance-the wixard is a frail, young kids, with gold skin and hourglass eyes, the halfling like creatures \"kender\" are like hobbits with ADD, the main elf characvter has a beard,

Terry Brooks\' Magic Kigdom series Landover

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by beowulfthehunter
well other types of Fantasy bending genres take a look at

Dragon Lance-the wixard is a frail, young kids, with gold skin and hourglass eyes, the halfling like creatures \"kender\" are like hobbits with ADD, the main elf characvter has a beard,

Terry Brooks\' Magic Kigdom series Landover

Hobbits on huge doses of sugar - lol

 

[farseerlum]

the frail wizard role is often ignored in the more SCI-FI genres.

larry nivens wizrards were very strong and muscled to withstand the rigours of casting.

some wizards use different majics and the style of wizard changes based on the rules of the magic itself.

i am not sure why barbarians are big. guess they just suffer the effects of attrition.

elves are vary different on who you talk to. the tuatha are not that advanced at all except in magic and nastyness.

i guess tolkien just made good achtypes for people to believe.

 

[Nelson]

Hmmmm......I really do like Terry Pratchetts stuff, the idea of surly, smoking, and/or drunk pixies is pretty funny!!! And as for other stuff, I\'ve been trying to convert some posh/poncy/foppish dwarves, which is really fun. I don\'t really have any other ideas, but I can relay a great one on to you guys. Chain smoking elves intrigue you? A fellow gaming group member has paintstakingly shaved all the hair off his few bare-headed elf models, and either left \'em bald, or modeled mohawks on. He then added fine chain, sculpted some leather bits on \'em, and made tiny cigs to put in their mouths. With a quick sickly yellow paint-job for their skin, he had one funny (albiet kinda non-schematic) high elf army!!!

 

[mouse]

my thoughts...

it seem that there is a certain balance to things. Tolkien didn\'t really invent those things. It\'s just there. He basically varied it. Elves are there...but used to be termed as fairy folks...little guys that dance around mushroom rings. Gary Gyrax varied it further...and others followed suit.

What\'s it to change an orc from green to brown, or an elf from magnificent to a weakling, or a thief to become muscular? Isn\'t it like working on those permutations of possibilities? Owl Bear is a blend between owl and bear...pegasus is a horse with wings...it\'s been done in the medieval ages; not just in the 30s and 40s.
(hmmm...how about a dragon-mouse?)

on the other hand, maybe elf is meant to be magnificent, willowy and magical. Okie, make it hairy, brute and strong with a bad-temper...yes, you call it a elf....i call it a dwarf...sigh...what\'s the diff?

a wizard who\'s strong and wears armour? Sure. There\'s always exceptions. However, the general populace of wizards...well, logically are frail, rite? they spent many hours a day poring over spellbooks, honing their minds and working their experiments in the lab...hmmm...no time in the sun....ring a bell in our real world?

unless in that world, magic doesn\'t come from learning but a natural ability...innate...

so you say, it\'s fantasy...it doesn\'t need to follow the logical world. fine.

so we\'ll see a fat and sloppy spiderman leaping and doing acrobats in across the city...duh.

i\'ve read books with stories that are too erratic, nonsenical and illogical...i call it craps...others called it a work of art...a breakthrough...sigh...

Tolkien didn\'t become famous simply by conjuring crazy and illogical ideas...he makes sense of his content and his conjuration of what he believed. and what he believed struck a firm chord within us. Resonating...hence, he became a legend...not some crazy man...unless someone mistaken a lunatic with a genius...its a fine line...

hmmm...

 

[vincegamer]

I find it odd that you start by criticizing the adherence to Tolkien, but then cite examples that aren\'t like his work:

Originally posted by SIGIL
Elves are always magical and sophisticated ( by and large ) and dwarves are always short bearded drunkards with HUGE axes, WHAT HAPPENED! I mean Tolkien was king of imagination right?

If I recall correctly, the only people who got drunk in any of Tolkiens\' works were the Elves of Mirkwood, who weren\'t exactly nice and civilized.

Originally posted by SIGIL
Why do Elves ALWAYS have to be all magnificent?

Well, if you watch the cartoon of the Hobbit, those are some pretty un-magnificent elves. The elves in Pratchett are good looking, but very mean and nasty.

Originally posted by SIGIL
Also I am tired of the fantasy stand by thematics for classes as well. WIzards should nt ALWAYS be old, feeble, human and garbed in flowing robes.

I don\'t know any fantasy that limits wizards to human, (never forgave Warhammer for taking away dwarf wizards) but spending all your time in the lab or library doesn\'t exactly make you Ahnold.

Originally posted by SIGIL
Warriors should not ALWAYS be muscular, young, wield swords and axes, and be clad in Plate mail. Barbarians do not have to all be Nordic or Celtic either. Thieves..... well they do kind of have to fit a certain physical criteria to do what they do,

Being a warrior doesn\'t?

Originally posted by SIGIL
Why can\'t a wizard be an adept swordsman? WHy do they always lug around a crystal ball? WHy can they not wear armor,.......... or a pair of practical trousers and a tunic?

Well, Gandalf was an adept swordsman if he\'s the basis as you claimed he is.
The clothes? Well why do graduates still wear flowing gowns?
As to armor, it comes from a common myth in the english world that iron is antithetical to magic. No reason you can\'t change that though. Lots of people do.


As to original races, RuneQuest had some fun ones - there was a race of flying folk that looked like they evolved from Pterodactiles.
Then of course there\'s all the stuff about Glorantha which is fascinatingly rich and diverse. Dragonewts are nifty!

 

[Tuubje]

Originally posted by vincegamer
As to original races, RuneQuest had some fun ones - there was a race of flying folk that looked like they evolved from Pterodactiles.
Then of course there\'s all the stuff about Glorantha which is fascinatingly rich and diverse. Dragonewts are nifty!

They don\'t even have to look different, just act different due to their evolution. Don\'t really remember where this came from but there is a book where there are 2 races in the world, one human, the other look exactly like humans but evolved from lizards instead of mammals.

 

[PF]

Yes Vincegamer,Glorantha had some new creatures including Dragonewts or Walkaputs or the Giant Bat guarding the Lunar Empire\'s frontiers.Oh,Glorantha and his runic magic,you miss me so much...