Is it just me...

[DarkWind]

... or do you have to be a well known CMoN\'er to get a decent flow of comments in WiP threads? It seems that any new/ not well known members who post WiP threads or similar get little to no replies, while well known members recieve loads. I\'ve been a longtime lurker here and from what I\'ve seen, this is the case. In fact, I myself have recieved waay more C&C on my WH40K minis on a LotR forum than I have on this, the world\'s best known miniature painting site. Bit strange, no?

I also find this to be the case with miniature ratings - Well Known CMon\'er=High rating, Newbie CMoN\'er=Meh. Actually, scratch that, Newbies and less well known people on average seem to have the correct ratings in general, but the veterans get ridiculously high ratings (of course, I don\'t mean all you regulars, but there are a few who I can think of off the top of my head who get 9 instead of clear 7.5s or thereabouts - on mostly all of their minis btw, its not just luck.)

Sorry for the rant, but its been bugging me for a while and I needed to get it off my chest I\'m not saying this just because I myself recieve few replies, but I have seen people update threads 5 times + and not get any C&C... and most of these people are the ones who truly need C&C, because they are new/not world class.

 

[Necroghast]

I can see where you\'re coming from. I think it might be because if you\'re a \"well known\" cmoner, people know you, they\'ve seen many other examples of your work, and they are generally just a bit more interested because you\'ve already established yourself. That being said, I\'ve been here for what... about 2 years I suppose and I still feel like I dont get as many comments as I\'d like.

 

[ScottRadom]

I\'m of two minds abotu your post Darkwind.

First, I don\'t see the inflation of scores too much. I think for the most part the scores be they harsh or not tend to be fairly accurate.

Second about the commenting on newer posters. I would have to agree, and I know why I don\'t leave more comments on some stuff.

The posters you mentioned that could clearly use help take the time and effort to put something up. A lot of times, let\'s be honest, they\'re really rough. I was that guy for SURE when I bagan posting about a year ago.

So, do you take the time to sort of stick your neck out and tell the poster that they could make a few of what might be considered general painting corrections? I\'m talking like thin paint, take off mould lines etc. Now, it\'d be great if that could be done without offending the poster, but I have seen it go wrong more times then I\'ve seen it go right. Too often the tone of the original post if full of too much pride in their work for me to feel comfortable leaving a comment (no matter how helpful I wish it to sound) critical in it\'s content.

I was lucky in that I got comments very early on, and I still do. I try to really, really reinforce to the people courteous to help me that I am truly after their honest opinions and advice and not just looking for pats on the back.

That brings me to the other reason I don\'t leave as many helpful comments as I\'d like... sometimes I type them out then delete them as I don\'t often feel like my skill level allows for me to leave a comment. With myself still learning sometimes it just feels real awkward to leave comments.

But after reading your posts I think I will try to make some effort.

But here\'s some tips I think people could use to get more comments.

1- Leave plenty of comments of your own! People most often return the favor.

2- Really stress that you\'re looking for help. Be specific as well. Add a comment like \"I am stil struggling to get smooth blends ( or metalics or whatever)\" and it might help get people going

3- PM people who\'s work or comments you enjoy reading. I\'ve yet to have a PM not returned on here.

So that\'s what I think anyway. Let\'s see what everyone else thinks.

 

[DarkWind]

Thanks to you both for your replies. I read your tips Scott, and I agree wholeheartedly with each one, especially the one about commenting on other works to get the return favour. I am slowly becoming more active here and will begin commenting on other people\'s threads more often, and I will pay particular attention to newbs .

The scores thing doesn\'t bother me much, it was just something I added as a side note, but I\'d still like to hear more opinions.

Cheers.

 

[Aliengod3]

I think most people look at the WIP\'s just to see what people are working on.

 

[QuietiManes]

I think the quality of the responses should also be considered. Fewer numbers isn\'t always a bad thing.

For the well known and highly skilled WIP threads, most of the comments are either \"great work! more updates!\" or \"how did you do that?\"...neither of which are all that helpful in regards to helping the original poster improve.

For the new and unknown folks, so many more comments are on topic, actual relevant comments and criticisms.

Frankly, I\'m happy if I don\'t have to scroll through 5 or 10 people telling you how great you are for every person saying something a little more interesting. Not that I\'m against someone congratulating someone on their work, don\'t get me wrong, but sometimes it gets a little out of control (especially in the WIP threads because every update there\'s another 2 or 3 folks who have to say \"you rule, can I have your babies?\" and a few others who feel the need to repeat their \"you are a god and I worship you\" sentiments from the previous update, just in case anyone forgot). I tend to only read WIP threads after they\'re a few pages long, so that\'s probably why it sticks out in my mind enough to annoy me.

Anyway, aside from that, new and unknown posters rarely return to even respond to their own threads, much less take your advice and try to apply it to their work in an effort to improve. So, that could discourage many responses.

The other thing I think discouraging responses is that most of the time it is the same thing being done wrong. The same thing anyone should know they\'re doing wrong from looking at the pictures they\'re posting or reading any of the articles on this site or any of the threads on any even remotely related topic in the forums. So I\'m sure some folks just get tired of telling people to thin their paints, trim the flash (remove mold lines) and use more lights when taking pictures, so they just don\'t.

I\'m not suggesting that you shouldn\'t post WIP threads if you fall into the above categories. Just suggesting why the comments might be low, other than popularity. However, that is the reason I haven\'t posted much of anything, I know I\'ve got so much to work on, until I lower my known inadequacies I don\'t see the need to add more. Although I do have some things in the works I do want to post up for c&c but it will be a while before I can get them to that stage since I have no time or space to work on them currently.

 

[Shadzar]

Personal observations:

Forum users on CMoN are a niche within our miniature hobby niche that even uses CmoN. Many people don\'t visit the forums.

Some people just don\'t post in certain areas of the forums.

Personal use:

I don\'t view threads that subject don\'t interest me. I don\'t just read every thread, and don\'t ever read the thread creator\'s name to decide if I want to view the thread to see what the mini is. This is because I don\'t like all minis or genre\'s thereof.

This could be the same for others as well. As previously said, some people just don\'t view some forums either, so some people may not even want to contribute to WIP threads. They may be around to just get kudos on their own work without contributing to the others on the site.

Also near weekends, it seems the numebr of posts go down, as the time available for people to post and view the forums is spent on the minis they may want to work on, where they can post during the week and don\'t have enough time to work on a mini with the rest of their lives getting in the way.

Just make sure you have your thread named something that tells what it is. Make sure you have some kind of pic if possible to show what you are working on. If you need help with finishing it or ideas, this will be good for people to give advice based on what you already have. Make sure you ask for help on what you are doing clearly.

\"What\'s missing from this mini?\", isn\'t likely to get as helpful info as you may want. Narrowing down what you think may seem bland on the mini could direct the discussion of ideas to more help you on what exactly you are asking for help on. Of course, if anyone is asking for help that is.

I don\'t know about the elitist aspect if there is any, but all forums have it; since I rarely look at the posters name, when a thread title interests me enough to open and read it to see if there is anything I can contribute. Number of post, or join date mean nothing to me when posting or reading a thread.

Hope this helps anyone with posting in WIP section to get more replies or assistance with their minis.

 

[laurence]

Niche member #69

Hi DarkWind,
Good you got that off your chest! No good to pent that stuff up. I think you make a good argument/point. I guess some d00ds who are firmly established \'round here probably get slightly higher mates votes, but we all know how the voting system works, so it\'s no biggy.

Although, I\'ve never started a WIP thread around here, I do like to make comments in other guy\'s WIP threads. *Hang on... I remember a while back getting feedback from some of the guys when I posted pics of minis that are sadly still sitting on my work bench. The guys were really nice. Also, some guys are probably not willing to leave comments in some of the WIP threads, and they\'re scared that they\'ll offend the painter by critisising their works. Even constructive critisism can hurt the feelings of an over-sensitive mini-painter.

Finally, I\'d say that you just need to keep posting WIP threads here, and you\'ll be surprised to get great comments from time to time. Hang in there. You\'re bound to get the feedback that you desire. Hehe, ironically, you\'ll probably get more replies in this thread.

Happy Sunday!

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by DarkWind
... Is it just me...

With respect, Yes in part, it is.


Basically I\'ve looked through your WIP thread. In the majority of what you are displaying there, your work is already way above the average tabletop figure seen on here and in stores.

Now the problem with any WIP thread is the perception of what is required from the viewer by the originator.
Are you looking for Ass kissing comments lol or are you looking for helpful suggestions to \"Up your Game\".?

If it\'s the latter make sure you spell it out, if needed in bold type, cos while the written word is good, sometimes Irony, Sarcasm and Subtlety gets lost by the casual reader.

Now having said that you are looking for helpful suggestions there are people like me, who having read one helpful suggestion, which covers the same points as we would have raised, don\'t feel the need to re-itterate what has been said.

In a similar vein, if I don\'t like something and can\'t find anything positive to say about it, I\'m certainly not rude enough (well most of the time) to tell you to throw it in the dettol and start over again.

So basically I\'m saying If you are looking for help make it clear, especially in the WIP section, so that it stands out above the \"noise to signal\" ratio.

 

[DarkWind]

Originally posted by DragonsreachNow the problem with any WIP thread is the perception of what is required from the viewer by the originator.
Are you looking for Ass kissing comments lol or are you looking for helpful suggestions to \"Up your Game\".?

I despise arse-lick comments. I never leave them and find it quite pointless recieving them, as QuietiManes pointed out above. In the LotR forum I mentioned I post only constructive comments, which I will start to do here too.

When I post new updates I usually ask for any C&C, but still, there are tons of painters who get consistent 9s on this forum, my average is probably around 8. Surely a couple of these painters see something I could improve? But anyway, thank you for all your opinions so far, and the tips have been very helpful.

Cheers.

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by Aliengod3
I think most people look at the WIP\'s just to see what people are working on.

aye i am the same and, like shadzar, if the subject is of no interest, i won\'t bother

you can\'t complain too much about people not commenting, you can\'t just turn up and expect people to immediately rush in with loads of comments. it\'s just like real life, if you have loads of friends, they will be more interested in what you are doing. we do try to make the effort though, especially with newbies

also, as mentioned, you leave comments, people do tend to return the favour. i hav posted the odd random comment and the next day have had a load of my stuff comented on, or a pm

 

[Ritual]

Something that irks me a bit is the idea some people have that if you\'re a good painter you owe it to everybody else to help them out. I\'m not saying that DarkWind necissarily feels that way, but this comment:

there are tons of painters who get consistent 9s on this forum, my average is probably around 8. Surely a couple of these painters see something I could improve?

could be seen that way. I have seen plenty of others, though, that have come here and more or less demand help and get really snotty when they don\'t get the answers or the help they expect.

Now, I don\'t mind helping people, and I often do so. But I certainly don\'t owe anything to anybody! I have gathered knowledge from lots of sources, books I\'ve bought, articles, short tips etc. Yes, I\'ve used information given by others, but it is through my own hard work that I\'ve transformed it into skills.

I definitely \"pay my dues\" by answering questions, explaining techniques and passing along what knowledge I have, but when people start demanding things from me as if I owe them something I get a bit annoyed. I love to help out, but I do so out of my own free will and I chose in what ways I do so.

Regarding WIP threads... I\'m not very interested in them, generally. I also am a bit in two minds about how useful they really are. I think the importance of them are a bit exaggerated. If you are to truly benefit from them you need to put quite a lot of effort into them yourself. First of all, you need to take photos that are as good as the ones you take of your finished minis. Most people don\'t go to that trouble, and end up posting pictures that are difficult to read properly and that makes any advice given much less accurate. Then, you need to clearly state what has been done, what you deem as finished and what you plan on doing with the areas that aren\'t finished. Otherwise, people will give you comments that stuff looks unfinished, and that\'s exactly what they are. How helpful is that? You also need to give some sort of idea what you want to achieve. Otherwise you may not get advice that will fit your own vision or your style of painting. As Mike said, it is also a good idea to clearly state what it is you want help with so that it is easier for people to focus on certain issues, instead of trying to say something general (and much less useful). I find a lot of WIP threads lacking in these points, and if the painter isn\'t making the effort to provide the viewers with the information that is needed to give out useful advice, why should I make an effort to try and figure out what the painter wants? I much rather spend time answering questions that are clearly defined in the Painting and conversion section.

When I do post in WIP threads it is often in threads by people I know. This is of two simple reasons... You help out your friends! Nothing wrong or strange with that. And, if you know someone, you also know a bit more what that person is trying to achieve, what his or her style is etc. That means you can give better advice.

Personally, I never bother with WIP threads. I think it is much better to seek feedback from a handful of people you know well, and who knows your style, your ideas etc. You get more honest, and more committed advice that way.

 

[DarkWind]

Thanks for the reply Ritual. I am in no way demanding anything from anybody, whether it looks that way or not. I understand where you are coming from but when I say that C&C from the better painters would be helpful, I do not singley point out anyone and demand help. There are lets say 800-900 painters out of 6800 who can get 9s all the time if they try. I am just wondering why hardly 1 out of that number would bother to post, I know not all are forum regulars but still, its a lot of people...

Cheers

 

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by Ritual
Something that irks me a bit is the idea some people have that if you\'re a good painter you owe it to everybody else to help them out.

I don\'t think it is an obligation, but if you joined the forums on any website, especially a free website that gives you space to host anything; then some people feel that each member should help contribute to the others. 99% of the ideas I offer may never be used, flat out rejected as stupid, or may be a repeat of something already decided doesn\'t work for someone. But I feel I should offer something to any forum I am a part of. The least you can offer is ideas since they are free.

There may be some that feel offering advice would make them less god as someone could surpass them in ability. I have no fear of that since I am in the bottom rung of the ranking ladders, but have seen that attitude on a few other mini related forums.

Also, it may be that many of those that could offer ideas, just having joined the forums here. The website isn\'t fully integrated with its many parts, and the forums and even articles are missed by many. So some that may be willing to offer advice, just don\'t know the forums are here to do so.

So the non-forums users may have a valid excuse, but in the sense of community what other reason is there to join a minis related forum; and what could it hurt to help others?

You offer lots of advice to things, so your statement is a bit confusing? But that is more for another thread maybe....

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Shadzar
You offer lots of advice to things, so your statement is a bit confusing? But that is more for another thread maybe....

What is confusing? Like I said, I don\'t mind giving advice or answering questions, and I do, all the time. But when people, often users who haven\'t posted much themselves, come here and DEMAND help and suggest that painters who are better than them OWE them help, that annoys me. And, just to clarify... I am not suggesting that is what DarkWind is doing. But, I\'ve seen that attitude being displayed many times.

 

[ScottRadom]

Well the one thing Darkwind\'s post has got me thinking on is thta I should defo try to help others a little more myself. I think it\'s only fair given the amount of generous help I\'ve been given around here. Pay it forward kind of thingy.

But truthfully I don\'t have much to offer you Darkwind other then the ole pat onthe back type posts. I like your work and I have more to take form your stuff then to give I think.

 

[Dragonsreach]

I find it a little amusing that Ritual is denying that he bothers giving a great deal of advice when in fact he is regarded one of the most prolific helpers around.

If you look at the top painters on this site (eg the top 200) there are about only 25% who are, or have been active within the forum community.
Now there could be dozens of reasons, some may not be conversant enough in English, some may only use the galleries as an advertisment, some no longer like the site, plus I have heard rumours that one female painter no longer bothers with an internet presence due to unwanted attention.

But to people like Anders and others, we do owe a great deal of gratitude for the assitance they provide.

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach
I find it a little amusing that Ritual is denying that he bothers giving a great deal of advice when in fact he is regarded one of the most prolific helpers around.

Well, what I meant is that I don\'t give that much advice in WIP threads for the reasons I mentioned above. I try to answer as many questions in the Painting/Conversion section that I feel I have something useful to contriubute to, and I try to comment on finished minis.

 

[Springbok]

I do mostly use the forums to pimp my commission work, but when I do post a WIP, I\'m always surprised by the amount of great advice that is given when you politely ask for it.

 

[DarkWind]

I\'m always surprised by the amount of great advice that is given when you politely ask for it

Yes, but usually everyone who asks for advice asks it politely/neutrally, not unpolitely as in \'give meh advice nao!!\'.

Cheers