Labour is dead

[Amazon warrior]

Originally posted by War Griffon
You mean these

At a time when the crews need protection and the top gunner needs protection from snipers as well as impact explosions etc the UK government come out with these.

Go figure for yourself.

When I look at that, I hear the \"Dune buggy\" song by Presidents of the USA...

 

[Springbok]

I can see the genius thinking behind that! Just think of the millions of pounds that the MOD is going to save, by not having to install AC units! Bravo!

 

[Legacy Account]

I never said body armour was pointless, just that casualties are inevitable in war. One that we shouldn\'t be fighting in the first place!

I know all about the body armour arguement and the debacle that ensued. Poor form for certain. I just don\'t buy into some of the hysterical statements in this thread. Our armed forces have always found themselves compromised in conflicts. Just take a look at what our lads faced in the Falklands. It may be a shit hand that they\'re dealt at times, but that comes with the territory.

As for buying a bank, well perhaps it would affect those without a mortgage less, and they might not consider the effects on the economy if that bank had been allowed to implode. The British economy has been built on a foundation of borrowing for the past decade. If interest rates went up even 2% with inflation as low as it is, there would be serious repercussions. Interest rates were up to 15-16% under the Tories. Repossessed homes by the bucket load! Over 3 million people unemployed - more than 10% of the workforce....

Those moaning about the Labour government may not be quite old enough to remember the truly shit times we went through under the last conservative government. I reckon Labour have done a reasonable job in comparison with one major mistake: the war - it should never have happened.

I like the rant about \'massive\' MP pay rises as well. 2% - really massive! I\'d be pissed if I got offered less than the rate of inflation! Looks like the PM and his ministers are going to forego that rise as an example as well. Something else that has been blown out of all proportion. I\'d rather give those MPs their paltry pay rise and stop wasting billions on war....

 

[Swordwind]

Of course there will be casualties in war. But when the people resonsible for said war send off kids to fight it without equipment that may save their life whilst at the same time voting themselves a big wedge of cash to buy themselves a second house, it starts to take the piss.

 

[DaN]

... Rubber band motor, sittin on the beach, ready for fun ...

I wonder if it goes Mach 5?

 

[Yramrag]

Originally posted by Swordwind
Of course there will be casualties in war. But when the people resonsible for said war send off kids to fight it without equipment that may save their life whilst at the same time voting themselves a big wedge of cash to buy themselves a second house, it starts to take the piss.

I may get flamed for this...
Well there doesn\'t need to be casualities in most wars these days because most of the wars don\'t need to be fought. Other than lining the pockets of Halliburton and KBR, what are the tangible benefits that both Iraq wars and Afghanistan have delivered?
Stabilised the region? hardly.
Stopped Al-Qaeda? Not in the slightest.
Protected the world oil supply? Record high oil prices (although i do blame the speculators for that one).
Devastated national economies? Check.
Pushed disability services to breaking point? Check.
Caused the needless death of those willing to fight for their country? Check.
I am all for whenever there is a war, it can be decided by the leaders of the countries involved doing the fighting themselves. Lock them up in a big room full of weapons and broadcast the whole event. If George Bush, Tony Blair or John Howard were to be the guys who have to be on the front line, i think they would want a little more intelligence and equipment before starting.

 

[Legacy Account]

100% agre Yramrag!

I just get tired of all the emotive rubbish spouted: \"send kids off to war\" and \"big wedge of cash to buy themselves a second house\" are great examples.

Since when has an extra 2000 quid or so paid for any house, let alone a second one? MPs are as entitled to a pay rise as anyone else (in the public sector). It\'s not as if they get paid an extortionate sum at the moment. I think their wage is at about the right level personally.

As for kids getting sent to war, THEY VOLUNTEERED! Government compromises cost people their lives every day of the week, but there\'s only a fixed amount of cash about to spend. Unless you want to pay more tax..... Britain is hardly a third world country as it stands. If you don\'t like the place, get off your arse and do something about it!!! Vote!! Or leave!!!!

 

[Springbok]

Unfortunately, since the beginning of recorded time, the poor have to die in brutal battle, in order for the rich to wage glorious war.

 

[Alaric the Mad]

The penny pinching has gone on all over-and unfortunetly always will (just ask a Sherman tank crewman in WW2 as the Tiger motors rumble to life each morning) and seems to be an across the board phenomenom.

We Canucks have done this for years-our jeeps were a bloody embarassment although we seem to have taken steps in the right direction in Afghanistan before the US military(which seems so odd to me) with the upgraded LAV25s and Mercedes G wagons.

The problem is-such \"this vs this\" lists are appeals to emotion...and tend to be completely unrealistic. I would be all for a reduction in military spending(or at least a ..uh..smartening) if it led to helping another nation or our own-but it will NEVER happen and blaming one party or another tends to indicate(tends too-im not trying to start a fight here) that one is part of the problem as opposed to solution.

One thing we westerners should all be united together on is that our governments are horribly incompetant and corrupt(with only moments of brilliance-like Joe Clark in the Iranian Hostage Crisis)) and rely on us beleiving that our voices mean something.
Worst part is, this continuity of suck has partially made us the GOOD countries we are- its hard to radically change something for good or bad in such an inefficient system.....and its easier to plan long term as well.

 

[Yramrag]

Originally posted by Springbok
Unfortunately, since the beginning of recorded time, the poor have to die in brutal battle, in order for the rich to wage glorious war.

No sorry i have to disagree with you there. Up until the last couple of hundred years (and even then there are some notable exceptions), leaders did lead from the front and fight. War profiteering seems to be a modern American invention. The American Civil War was a good example of this. In the South, you could pay for someone else to take your spot in the army. Of course only the rich land holders could afford this and so a saying among the South was \"Rich man\'s war, poor man\'s fight\".

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Yramrag

Originally posted by Springbok
Unfortunately, since the beginning of recorded time, the poor have to die in brutal battle, in order for the rich to wage glorious war.

No sorry i have to disagree with you there. Up until the last couple of hundred years (and even then there are some notable exceptions), leaders did lead from the front and fight. War profiteering seems to be a modern American invention. The American Civil War was a good example of this. In the South, you could pay for someone else to take your spot in the army. Of course only the rich land holders could afford this and so a saying among the South was \"Rich man\'s war, poor man\'s fight\".

I disagree, many Rulers did the same thing before America even existed.(Probably due to the invention of the Longbow, in which a peasant could kill a heavily armoured king from 200 yards) Any civilization that has a government with a separate \"ruling class\" and a standing military rarely, if ever, has it\'s rulers in battle.

Also, you have your sides messed up. Rich Northerners could pay $300 to avoid being drafted in the US civil war. (causing many riots in Northern cities in which US citizens were shot and killed by the police and the Army. Link: New York Draft Riots), as well as the North taking immigrating Irish directly off the boats and pressing them into service, making them fight a war for their citizenship. In effect, Slavery.
The saying originated in the North and is simply another way of saying, \"Soldiers don\'t start wars; Politicians do.\"
IE: The rich are usually the politicians.
As an Ex-military man I can say easily say I served with far more middle class men than poor. The statistics just don\'t support the poor, uneducated US soldier argument any more. IE: John McCain\'s son is a PFC in Iraq.