Masterclass painting ;)

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by Ritual
I just want to mention that the ONLY thing that bothers me about any of GW\'s articles (and the one I linked to in particular) is that they are labelled as \"Masterclass\" (something I expect the authors are completely without guilt for).

Exactly so, m\'lord. For me, it\'s as though the articles themselves are being put on a pedestal they never intended to be on. It\'s like a sales gimmick, \"here, read this, it\'s masterclass!\" The authors are not masters of the art, but they don\'t intend to be either. They\'re gamers who paint.

The \"class\" in masterclass isn\'t about a tutorage, for me. I see it as a category, or a level of distinction. I don\'t care whether someone shares their methods or not, if someone is a master, it\'s because they have mastered their art. Their peers are other masters, and they are willing to put every ounce of effort into their vision of perfection. I don\'t think that Van Gogh ever taught, but his work is true masterclass.

 

[Klute]

Im pretty sure the \"Masterclass\" title is just that and not much thought has gone into it.

Have you noticed how many online tutorials here have a disclaimer in the top saying something like \"I in no way say I am the best at this but this is the way I do it\".

LavronYor......you are right of course that the GW guys will be getting paid to do the articles. I stand by my thought though that these poorly painted articles ARE a masterclass to the majority of users that will be looking at them.
Just not us.

Supervike.....right on my man. We are becoming a bunch of prima donas etc etc We need to take a step back and look at what we are doing to our enjoyment of the hobby.
I dont have fun anymore painting purely becuase I dont have the will power to finish it and I cant be bothered to do my best.
Personally I need to step back and start painting some quick paintjobs and have some fun. Maybe those articles will help.

 

[InqMefisto]

Originally posted by hashmallum
But it\'s not this bad with those \'maseterclass\' tutorials mentioned here.

Check out the REAL THING! :bouncy:

THING

Please check some of the closeups

I\'m just stunned lol lol lol lol lol

But in all fairness this is a \'conversion clinic\', not a painting masterclass.

Having said that, I\'m no fan of some of the stuff that has masqueraded under that label!

I suspect that the articles, aimed at the target audience for the big 3 GW games, may not quite be what some of us are lookin gfor as a masterclass.

Having said that some of the old Inquisitor masterclasses were excellent.

m.

 

[hashmallum]

I never said that GW was lame or \'Eavy Metal poor - I\'m just pointing out how deceiving they may be nowadays , convincing people that low level is masterclass :/

I remmebr brwosing through old codexes while I was a little brat - I was amazed with the painting , and in awe of the painters - thus I was trying to paint as good as them , and even now I cannot get a glimpse of their mastery :/ - now I look at the masterclass articles and laugh :/
what a pity that they won\'t let people from \'Eavy Metal write those:/

I think that GW\'s painters are top - notch , though I cannot understand why they give the ,mastercalss rubric for people who don\'t really know how to do this sport ...

I would understand the whole process if they called the articles simple painting , but not masterclass,

In my opinion they ridicule the hobbysts who love painting minis...

How can they give the name \'masterclass\' for weakish minis , like the Skink priest , and from the other side the same label to the really impressive C\'Tan Nightbringer.

This is what keeps bothering me.

Also look at the articles - they are like 2 paras , nothing more , It wouldn\'t take more than 40 minutes to write this

 

[Hoblit]

So, this is the opinion of a part-time gamer and even more part-time painter.

As far as I\'m concerned, the \"masterclass\" stuff they put up for GW is exactly the sort of thing I\'m looking for. I want something that I can aim at and maybe have some hope of achieving. As far as calling it \"masterclass\" well maybe that is where the issue is.

GW do not make their money from the high quality painter\'s entering the Golden Demon. They make it from sods like me who buy whole armies at a time, and as a result, the painting standard that they are saying I should aspire to, is one that won\'t cause me to lose all interest because it is impossible to achieve.

As far as masterclass painters go, I could probably list 10 or 15 off the top of my head just from the forums. Not because they are necessarily the best, but because they are willing to help people like me improve without especting me to take it as seriously as someone who does this for a living.

The other problem that has crept into gaming is that people are now getting professionally painted armies to use at tournaments to ensure that they get maximum \"soft points\" (painting, sportmanship, etc) Now while there is nothing technically wrong with this, it does nothing to the hobbyists who enjoy painting there armies, and feel they have done a really good job, only to have there points lowered because of the people with more money.

(off topic) As far as GW bashing goes, It\'s going to happen. Basically they are the equivalent of Microsoft. It doesn\'t matter what they do, people will complain because they are the big company. (/off topic)

 

[generulpoleaxe]

@hoblit, most tournaments recognise what you are saying about propainted armies. to even things out they only allow armies that have been painted by there owners to win best painted army.

 

[GAR]

HOWDY.
As an occasional poster here, I find all of this discussion very interesting.

From my point of view, I place little value on the scores here on this site. Not that this a bash on any of you, or the community as a whole in any shape form or fashion, but my view is there is a lot of elitism here.

Now for what it is worth, this can be a good and a bad thing. One, I can get a good critique of any minis I post on the forum with insightful comments and things to consider to get better and improve. That is invaluable help.

On the other hand, the thinking that unless something is in exactly in keeping with what you think a \"masterclass\" or GD or whatever you chose to call it, it is not worthy of anything but ridicule.

Now of course, this does apply to everyone, and I am sure many of you will get defensive and say \"I\'m not like that\" and rightly so. it is not everyone, but also be aware that the loudest wheel get the grease.

have you ever looked at the bottom scored minis? Sure many of them are horrible, but the comments on something are utterly derogatory and insulting. If I was a new painter and posted here for an opinion of my work, I would toss my brushes and send all my stuff to Sri lanka to be painted.

I would encourage you to try and be more aware of what you are saying, and also of who your audience is.

I myself took about a year and a half break from this site because of this same type of behavior.

With regard to the GW stuff, as a long time player of thier stuff, I have seen it go downhill over the last 10 years, slowly to be sure, but so what. They can call their clinics or masterclass stuff whatever they want, who cares. You know and I know it is not very good in some areas, and in some cases it is downright pathetic. But are you going to be bothered by what they call their stuff.

personally I say more power to them for at least giving anyone who wants ideas. Sure they can be improved on, but the idea of a Slaneshi snake lady is a cool one, or even color selction for a LOTR figure. these things can help out complete beginners figure out where to begin.

And eventually they will move on to other sites to leanr more advanced painting and conversion techniques as well as fresh new ideas.

Anyhoo, I am going to get off the soap box now. Thanks for listening to a slightly above average painter ramble on.

GAR

 

[hashmallum]

Ok GAR 1 point for you , but this is cmon - this site is about ratings and comments!
People are meant to have thick skin here - to accept criticism is the only way to get better...

Let\'s not deceive ourselves - the site is about painting and painting good - what do you feel seeing such a mini ?

LINK

What are your feelings for the painter huh ?

 

[GAR]

Originally posted by hashmallum
Ok GAR 1 point for you , but this is cmon - this site is about ratings and comments!

Let\'s nott deceive us - the site is about painting and painting good - what do you feel seeing such a mini ?

LINK

What are your feelings for the painter huh ?

Umm, ok, well looking at the figure, it looks like he use unthinned GW paints straight off the pot with a synthetic testors brand of brush, the cheap white ones with the black bristles.

And since it was his friends and not his own, one could assume the painter has no clue his is posted, or he could aslo have meant the figure is the best he has painted yet. It could also be one of his first few figures. They could also be 10 yrs old or younger. My 7 yr old son paints about like that, but he is just a little kid too.

I knew a guy who showed me his first few figures for comment. I was polite and gave a few pointers on how to improve. In all honesty the figures looked a lot like the one you linked to, horrible. But he got better and better and is now a pretty good painter. took him several years, but he eventually got there.

Alrighty then, next. CMON is about ratings and comments, sure that\'s fine if that is all you want. But if I don\'t want to do SENMM and chose metallics more often than not, I will get a 5 or a 4 there abouts. And if what I do is not bright and colorful, it usually gets dinged as well. They could be technically excellent and perfect, but if the color selection is not in keeping with the whims of the crowd viewing them, they get dinged or no comments are left on what can be improved. So I stick by my stance that the ratings have little value, at least to me. Especially when anyone can come by and give you a 1 because it is Friday.

I supposse my point of view is different than yours as I am always looking at the technical merits and skills shown first before I evaluate the palette used on a figure. s\' OK though, we are all different and that is a good thing.

I would much rather have good solid critical comments than a 9 or 10 vote. But that;s just the way I am. I am always trying to push the limits of what I can do and find new ways to improve and innovate rather than paint a bright piece of bling on a chaplain.

 

[Ritual]

That is a very prejudiced view of CmoN you display there! Voting is harsh and critical, but I don\'t see much of the disregard for certain styles and methods you mention. If you check the top artists you\'ll see that, for instance, Allan C, Nano, Banshee, Cyril (just to pick a few of the top 20 artists) use predominantly metallics and there\'s several painters who use muted, gritty colour schemes and get good ratings. People on this site are very much interested in new ideas and new styles. But, it takes a lot to get good scores because there\'s so many great painters to compare with here.

 

[penguin]

Your comment on the above mini wasn\'t very helpful, Ritual :] Fairly witty though:

Rating:2
Looks like it\'s been \"painted\" by a cherry-eating seagull :]

 

[GAR]

I have no disagreement there are many very very good painters here. And I have argument with all the hard work and effort that goes into producing a fine figure as well.

My point is there is value in most everything done, either in how to improve or, as cited in this thread with regard to some of GW masterclass articles, how not to do things IF, and it is a big if, you are at a certain skill level.

I am not going to say we should all get agree and sing kumbaya( I sound like cats in a woodchipper BTW). What I am hoping is for good constructive comments.

Sometimes I get them on my minis, sometimes I don\'t. I, personally, get frustrated when a figure does not get any comments and the score seems out of whack, either too low or too high.

Sorry if I gave offense, I was trying to be objective in my comments with general examples.

 

[hashmallum]

If you are affraid of criticism no one makes you post minis here , the same goes for GW\'s website - if they show such crap labelled as masterclass people have a laugh at them.

As simple as this

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Penguin
Your comment on the above mini wasn\'t very helpful, Ritual :] Fairly witty though:

Rating:2
Looks like it\'s been \"painted\" by a cherry-eating seagull :]

No... :innocent: I guess not! I only wrote that since it wasn\'t the painter himself who posted the mini and the guy who did seemed to think it was pretty bad too. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut? I don\'t know.

@GAR
I think one of the main problems with the site here is that it\'s so big. There\'s over 16000 members and many seem to have given up writing comments since it\'s simply too daunting. If you want constructive criticism the best way is to \"pimp\" your minis here on the forums and specifically ask for criticism. Then you will get plenty of that. I can\'t speak for all the 16000+ members, but the majority of the regular forum visitors are more than willing to share and offer whatever help they can give.

 

[GAR]

Originally posted by Ritual

@GAR
I think one of the main problems with the site here is that it\'s so big. There\'s over 16000 members and many seem to have given up writing comments since it\'s simply too daunting. If you want constructive criticism the best way is to \"pimp\" your minis here on the forums and specifically ask for criticism. Then you will get plenty of that. I can\'t speak for all the 16000+ members, but the majority of the regular forum visitors are more than willing to share and offer whatever help they can give.

Been starting to catch on to that, has been very very helpful and makes me do the happy dance. I\'m from Texas so I am a little slow sometimes, especially when it is hotter outside than Angelina Jolie in body paint pirate suit!!

thanks!

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by GAR
especially when it is hotter outside than Angelina Jolie in body paint pirate suit!!

Is it THAT hot there?

 

[Avelorn]

Originally posted by GAR
...especially when it is hotter outside than Angelina Jolie in body paint pirate suit!!

damnit I\'m trying to do a paper on rational choice here!! You made me think of other things... lol

what am I doing reading this thread? back to work.

And oh.. yeah one more thing reciprocity. I find when I start commenting helpfully on other people\'s work they do the same for me.

Now go and post a mini for us to rip apart!

 

[hashmallum]

KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN!

Hehe , indeed , the forum is the heart of coolmini ,and not the gallery (if you wish comments and hints)
People give you best advice here though...

 

[laurence]

Paintsnobbery

Forgive me Supervike for stealing your \'Title\'. But you\'ve hit the nail on the head!!

I\'m not too sure where I\'m going wth this...

Take Steve Vai, Eddie Van Halen.. for example. Technically brilliant!! Chops to die for!! Seriously!! But no soul!!

Sorry!! No soul guys!!

Feeling etc..

Once again I make a guitarist analogy/simile.

Then again, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, SRV. Chops galore and soul.

Johnny Guitar Watson, Guitar Slim, BB King.. Not too much in the chops department but soul!!

Back on to minis.. I don\'t want to put a negative spin on this but... Lately I\'ve noticed top painters blowing sunshine up other top painters arses. That\'s c00l. But, it all feels a little elite for me.

Given that I\'m a certified member of the \"Self-Righteous Brigade\" I feel it\'s my duty to say... \"Give the little guy a go\". Throw a little encouragement his/her way.

\"Oh it\'s not perfect\"... Ouch, there\'s a mistake in there. Lord forbid!! It\'s not perfect. Shun, shun shun..

I\'m not a big Zappa fan but I\'ve read that one of his biggest influences was a bad a$$ d00d who went by the name of \'Johnny Guitar Watson\'. Raw, raw!! Mistakes everywhere. But a master. Listen to one of his albums and you\'re in for a blues masterclass!!

Minis! I want mistakes! Like the persian rug guys who deliberately make a mistake while weaving to express that only God is perfect.

I want gritty! I want, feel! And most imporatantly I want soul!!

 

[GreenOne]

Take Steve Vai, Eddie Van Halen.. for example. Technically brilliant!! Chops to die for!! Seriously!! But no soul!!

Well Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!
Steve Vai? No Soul ?!?
Please listen to the fire and the glory ( Not too sure about the title...) and change your mind on it.

Okay. Let\'s stay on topic. It show pretty much how much everything is subjective.
Above the \"subjective line\" that is. I mean there is an \'objective\' census that something that is bad IS bad.
Like the Convershun clinic pics or the mini that just been discussed.
No reason to be mean about it. And that\'s pretty stupid to be mean and that\'s where it become snobism.
The line between okay, good, and very good, is more subjective and blurry where there is place for interpretation ( My unit is averaged at 5.7, I would give 6.5 based on my way of voting and some CMONers gave it 7 or 8. for example.) Nothing unfair of frustrating about that, this just subjective.

Now, knowing how far some circles of painters have taken it, GW should probably be more concerned about showing only display stuff that looks good. Good enough to be over the subjective line at least, else they\'re messing with their own credibility, imo.

And me who wasn\'t feeling like a long post