Mohamed the Bear

[Sand Rat]

No, it\'s apologist, in two ways. \'They can\'t help it, they were just raised that way\'. Every person is responsible for their own actions. Saying otherwise is apologizing for their ass-hattery.

Wrong - saying so is saying there is a reason for their behavior not that it is right or wrong or apologizing for it - Understanding the causes of a persons actions in no way apologizes for them - it gives you a better chance to change the behavior

Second, saying that Muslim culture is just \'that way\' is apologizing for the perpetuation of this type of mentality. There is no \'hard-liner\' group agitating behind the scenes. This type of mob mentality and violence is the norm - the majority. Islam, despite what people say, is not a religion of peace, never has been, and never will be.

Really - have you actually looked at the realpolitic of the Islamic World DF? There are hard liner groups everywhere looking for excuses like this to stir up the population about the evils of the west - what do you think the political arms of Hamas and Al Queda are there for?

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by steelcult
Actually strike that - because in England she would have had 3 different diversity groups tell her she couldn\'t name the bear Mohammed long before she got to that point - and they would have told her why.

aye and those groups would have told her that she wasn\'t allowed to wear a cross at school or celebrate christmas because it may offend other cultures

 

[darthfoley]

Originally posted by steelcult
Really - have you actually looked at the realpolitic of the Islamic World DF? There are hard liner groups everywhere looking for excuses like this to stir up the population about the evils of the west - what do you think the political arms of Hamas and Al Queda are there for?

No, I\'m just spewing words without doing my homework. Cause, y\'know, that\'s how I operate. I\'m far from a geopolitical expert, but I know that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it\'s most likely a duck.

You will not change the behavior of the Muslim world. To think you can by studying their culture is naive in the extreme. The reason they act like this is because that\'s what their religion tells them - or, if you prefer to be \'PC\', what some of their religious leaders tell them. I think that most Muslims take the Koran literally, while most of us in the West would like to interpret it loosely (if we bother to look at it at all).

The \'hard liners\', as you call them, are simply the most vocal ones. IMO, the majority of the Muslim world feels the exact way those groups do - that Muslim law is the only law, and those who do not accept Muhammad and Allah must either convert, submit to dhimmi status, or die - by the word of the Koran (of course, based on some cases I\'ve read, even quoting the Koran to support my argument would be considered \'hateful speech\' and \'vilifying Islam\'). There may be moderate Muslims - but the Muslim faith is NOT moderate.

I realize this opinion isn\'t the accepted or publicly spoken viewpoint about the Muslim world. I realize that by even saying this I can most likely expect to be lectured by many people here about how intolerant I am and how I\'m vilifying the Islamic world for the actions of \'a few\'. I just think that what some people call \'a few\' is more like \'most\', and until the West realizes that we can not change that, we will not find the answers to the problems the Mid East presents.

 

[Sand Rat]

Having lived with, worked with, and traveled among both Shiites and Sunni\'s I can tell you that your view of the Islamic world as one giant monolithic culture of hate for all non Muslims is incorrect.

If I hold to your view that they are all the same based upon the actions of the few, then I must also hold to the same view that all Christians are the same because of what I hear being spewed by a vocal few Christians on the right. But to do that would be to insult millions of good honest Christians who have as little to do with the likes of David Koresh or the Westboro Baptist Church as you or I do - yet you insist that the millions of moderate Muslims out there hold the same view of the world that the likes of Osama Bin Laden or the leaders of Hamas hold.

You are correct in one aspect - studying the culture of the areas will not lead to a change in their behavior - but a better understanding of the individuals in their cultural setting will lead to fewer incidents like this. We expect in the West that they meet our cultural Ideals - yet we lack the respect of their cultural Ideals because we feel that they are silly or not worth bothering with because we are superior to them. This kind of behavior does not lead to better relationships between peoples and does us no credit at all.

 

[darthfoley]

Ask your \'moderate\' Muslim friends what the Koran says as far as the treatment of non-Muslims. If they tell you anything other than the three choices outlined above, they aren\'t being truthful.

I can state that Muslim is not moderate because I can see that\'s the truth. You can believe what you like (well, as long as you\'re not in a Muslim controlled area, at least) but the actions they display is the real truth.

What you say about moderate Christians is the complete opposite of what I say - the moderate Christian world does not believe that people must convert or be killed. The moderate Muslim world, if they have actually read the Koran and believe what it says, does.

There\'s a reason the old proverb says \'Me against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; my brother, my cousin and I against the world\'.

 

[farseerlum]

i actually do put both muslims and christian into the same fanatic basket. moderates and extremists, all of them.

people keep teling me that i shouldn\'t whitewash a whole religion based on the actions of a few. but these people don\'t seem to understand that i condemn the lot for the actions of the majority.

the common ground with all religions is the reliance on blind faith. faith in a book or belief or leaders of the faith. it\'s all the same, something people believe without enough rational evidence is difficult to justify when pushed to give reasons for belief. when words fail, action follows. either retreat or attack, it makes no real difference because sooner or later people will either give up their faith or attack.

i have seen hundreds of examples of christians abusing other people. violent? sometimes yes. mostly intimidating emotionally or verbally. but they don\'t see anything wrong with it. i have only been in contact with few muslims but the behave exactly the same as the christians. defensive when asked to justify their belief. offensive when they can\'t.

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by steelcult
We expect in the West that they meet our cultural Ideals - yet we lack the respect of their cultural Ideals because we feel that they are silly or not worth bothering with because we are superior to them. This kind of behavior does not lead to better relationships between peoples and does us no credit at all.

i disagree, they come over here and we meet their needs. in a \'christian\' country, we have christmas banned in some areas, muslim police officers refusing to wear the metropolitan police badge on their turban because it contains a cross. they come over here and expect us to change. the main problem a lot of people have is these double standards. we have to live EXACTLY as they want us to if we move over there but the do whatever they want if they come over here. don\'t get me wrong, i don\'t expect them give up their way fo life but just modify it a little. i work in the welsh valleys, a pretty backwater general hospital and the chicken they serve at the canteen in halal. i know that the majority of non muslims don\'t like the idea of halal (they see it as cruel) and have tried a petition to stop it or at least have a choice. however, the management refuse to act. personally, i don\'t care, chicken is chicken (and it\'s all crap the way they do it in the canteen anyway!)

Originally posted by farseerlum
i actually do put both muslims and christian into the same fanatic basket. moderates and extremists, all of them.

people keep telling me that i shouldn\'t whitewash a whole religion based on the actions of a few. but these people don\'t seem to understand that i condemn the lot for the actions of the majority.

the common ground with all religions is the reliance on blind faith. faith in a book or belief or leaders of the faith. it\'s all the same, something people believe without enough rational evidence is difficult to justify when pushed to give reasons for belief. when words fail, action follows. either retreat or attack, it makes no real difference because sooner or later people will either give up their faith or attack.

i have seen hundreds of examples of christians abusing other people. violent? sometimes yes. mostly intimidating emotionally or verbally. but they don\'t see anything wrong with it. i have only been in contact with few muslims but the behave exactly the same as the christians. defensive when asked to justify their belief. offensive when they can\'t.

i tend to agree

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by farseerlum
i actually do put both muslims and christian into the same fanatic basket. moderates and extremists, all of them.

people keep teling me that i shouldn\'t whitewash a whole religion based on the actions of a few. but these people don\'t seem to understand that i condemn the lot for the actions of the majority.

...snippety snip...

Come to think of it, why restict this condemnation to just christians and muslims? Why not have a go at all the abrahamic religions? And then the dharmic religions too, \'cos they haven\'t been the best behaved lot either. Heck, why not all religions? And atheists too? Socio-political movements do the same too.

You\'ve fairly described people, not just the religions of Christianity and Islam. Ask anyone to justify their beliefs and they become defensive, and offensive when they cannot. It\'s humanity. People are people the world over.

As for Mohamed the bear, well, I asked a muslim colleague of mine about it, and he thought it was a cute idea, to name a bear after the prophet.

 

[farseerlum]

Originally posted by Modderrhu
Come to think of it, why restict this condemnation to just christians and muslims? Why not have a go at all the abrahamic religions? And then the dharmic religions too, \'cos they haven\'t been the best behaved lot either. Heck, why not all religions? And atheists too? Socio-political movements do the same too.

You\'ve fairly described people, not just the religions of Christianity and Islam. Ask anyone to justify their beliefs and they become defensive, and offensive when they cannot. It\'s humanity. People are people the world over.
after the prophet.

yep a whole bunch of them go into the basket too.

the basket has a long label. \"people who invest so much into a belief that they get irrational and violent when confronted about it.\"

and yes this does apply well to people in general but to a far lesser degree. you think my cooking sucks? oh well don\'t eat it. see no real reason to try to kill you is there? sure some people can in fact put so much of themselves that they get a little cranky but it pales to the amount of people who invest their eternal souls in thier doctrine.

which is why religion gets lumped in there so easily. people do kill to preserve their afterlife, all the time.

why? because their religions are competative. they can\'t confront a very common issue which is \"why are there other people who think different to me?\"

i\'m in the basket labled \"people who get cranky and upset but think about it later and does not to kill people while i learn to get along.\"

if i\'m being good i go into the sub basket \"and then appologies for being an asshat\"

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by Modderrhu

As for Mohamed the bear, well, I asked a muslim colleague of mine about it, and he thought it was a cute idea, to name a bear after the prophet.

exactly i know a load of muslims who wouldn\'t give a shit about that. so how can an outsider be expected to know that it\'s supposed to be insulting if not all of the muslims find it insulting anyway?!

*edit* also if she refused to let the children name it mohamed, there would probably be a shit storm too as she wasn\'t allowing them to express their religion. they\'d probably be complaining about \'censorship\' then

 

[Talion]

Originally posted by darthfoley

What you say about moderate Christians is the complete opposite of what I say - the moderate Christian world does not believe that people must convert or be killed.

I have to disagree with this comment, in todays world yes I guess it sticks go back a few hundred years, and yep if you weren\'t a christian you where to either convert or be killed.

Look what happened to all the greek and roman gods.........christians come along sorry all your beliefs are wrong, and ours are right, so we\'ll destroy what you believe and force you believe ours, if not you obviously worship the devil and must be killed.

I\'m with Farseelum.........all religion is full of crackpots and is the major cause in conflict in the world, always has always will be.

But that\'s just me

 

[PegaZus]

Originally posted by Talion

Originally posted by darthfoley

What you say about moderate Christians is the complete opposite of what I say - the moderate Christian world does not believe that people must convert or be killed.

I have to disagree with this comment, in todays world yes I guess it sticks go back a few hundred years, and yep if you weren\'t a christian you where to either convert or be killed.

Look what happened to all the greek and roman gods.........christians come along sorry all your beliefs are wrong, and ours are right, so we\'ll destroy what you believe and force you believe ours, if not you obviously worship the devil and must be killed.

I\'m with Farseelum.........all religion is full of crackpots and is the major cause in conflict in the world, always has always will be.

But that\'s just me

Yes, but the Christian killings stopped, for the most part. You do not hear about schools being taken over by armed men acting in the name of John Smith. There is no \"separatist\" movement active in the south car bombing Wal-Marts. I\'ll grant you a few minority crack pots who believe they are doing the Christian god\'s work by violence, although I have trouble finding information. Eric Rudolph, 3 dead and 150 injured in the 1990s. July 26, 2007 17 Christians convicted of beheading 2 muslim fishermen in Indonesia.

So far this year, 16,760 have been killed and 22,080 injured in attacks where Islam was involved. BUT! Let\'s take out Iraq and Afghanistan to remove US involvement from the equation (whether you agree or disagree with the action). The numbers are now 3,253 killed and 4,869 injured. That a lot to just pass over as a \"few crack pots\".

Seems that there is a large imbalance in those numbers.

So what stopped the Christian killings from centuries before? (BTW, in the 350 YEARS of the Spanish Inquisition, 4,000 people were estimated to have been put to the stake. Witches? Oh, Europe burned 60,000 of them, around 171 a year.) Mostly reformation of religious thought.

Here\'s hoping Islam can reform the same. Now, I\'m going to go back to painting for a bit and leave politics and religion alone. Makes people all on edge and I\'m here to relax. :beer:

 

[squig hunter]

This just in: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Teacher_...r_given_pardon

Squig

 

[Swordwind]

Originally posted by PegaZus
I\'ll grant you a few minority crack pots who believe they are doing the Christian god\'s work by violence, although I have trouble finding information. Eric Rudolph, 3 dead and 150 injured in the 1990s. July 26, 2007 17 Christians convicted of beheading 2 muslim fishermen in Indonesia.

Timothy Mcveigh, the Oklahoma city bomber, devout Catholic, killed 168 and injured more than 800. The single largest terrorist attack on US soil prior to 9/11.

Then theres the IRA but I wont go into detail as I find it hard to talk about them without being reduced to a string of profanity.

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by darthfoley
Ask your \'moderate\' Muslim friends what the Koran says as far as the treatment of non-Muslims. If they tell you anything other than the three choices outlined above, they aren\'t being truthful.

I can state that Muslim is not moderate because I can see that\'s the truth.

Yes, the Koran may say that, however, modern individuals may or may not take that view. There are many things in both the Bible and Torah of a similar nature, for example - Suffer not a witch to live - yet you do not seem to be saying because of this we should be killing witches. If a Christian is to be as truthful to his book as your hypothetical Muslim would he not have to follow this rule from God?

Your truth is not my truth my truth is not your truth -

 

[Wombat85]

First off, I happen to remember learning about a little incident that happened in Germany about 60 years ago that involved a semi-religious cult that claimed a tie to a Christian-knight brotherhood doing horrible things.......oh yea it was the waffen ss, and they claimed a link to the teutonic knights, and oh yea they killed ALOT of non-Christians. I also remeber not long after that the first incident occouring that was giving the term \'terrorist\' attack, it was a jewish group who bombed a hotel in the name of an israil state. Muslims weren\'t the first to have extremists some of you as Christians just refuse to look and see, making you just as naive and therefore bad as the Muslim fanatics who also don\'t want to learn the truth. As for me I\'m a pagan and so according to all your religious books an eternity of damnation awaits me but meh each to his/her own.

 

[Evil Dave]

Just an observation, but we seem to have far more anti-religion fanatics who like to push their views on this board than religious ones.

In fact, I\'d go as far as saying that some of our atheists like to spout off their views with a zeal, an almost religious zeal, usually with a touch of smugness and superiority, that puts many door to door Jehovah\'s Witnesses to shame.

Say what you will, but even if we did away with all religion, we\'d still have wars, strife, conflict, poverty, murder, rape, etc. etc.
We\'d just find something else to blame though.

 

[darthfoley]

Originally posted by steelcult

Originally posted by darthfoley
Ask your \'moderate\' Muslim friends what the Koran says as far as the treatment of non-Muslims. If they tell you anything other than the three choices outlined above, they aren\'t being truthful.

I can state that Muslim is not moderate because I can see that\'s the truth.

Yes, the Koran may say that, however, modern individuals may or may not take that view. There are many things in both the Bible and Torah of a similar nature, for example - Suffer not a witch to live - yet you do not seem to be saying because of this we should be killing witches. If a Christian is to be as truthful to his book as your hypothetical Muslim would he not have to follow this rule from God?

What you\'re saying is \'if\'. What I\'m saying is \'is\'. One letter makes a lot of difference. As someone earlier pointed out, reforms in the Christian church have made a huge difference in the actions of the moderate Christian world. Islam has not had the same reform.

I have my own issues (plenty) with the Christian church, but at least I know in my heart that if I tell my local Methodist minister \'No thank you, I\'m not interested\' he\'ll pray for me instead of trying to lop my noggin off.

Originally posted by steelcult
Your truth is not my truth my truth is not your truth -

This much we agree on. :beer:

 

[Sand Rat]

And my experience with moderate Muslims is much the same - once I said no thanks, they politely offered similar services for my soul. We were also able to discuss the similarities and differences of the Islamic and Christian viewpoints, along with the absurdities and truths of both.

 

[Roger Bunting]

The root of the problem is people. People who interpret texts and preach to others, and no, not just religeous, although an example in religion, unless I\'m mistaken, is that the quote about witches that steelcut posted above was included in the King James bible. Prior to that was it not \"suffer not poisoners to live\"?