Roger Bunting
New member
Well, good job you\'re off to New Zealand then. 
Mohamed the Bear
- Thread starter matty1001
- Start date
Well, plenty of muslims embrace those less violent creeds, all over the muslim world. Verse 9:5 sound very militant when you pull it out of its context, but if you read the entire text it is evident that it regards \"unbelievers\" with whom there is \"no treaty\", and who work against the Muslims. Unbelievers who respect their treaty with the Muslims and who do not give aid to those others are to be respected because \"Allah loves those who keep their duty\". Verse 9:5 also tells how the hostile unbelievers can repent and be spared. You can find very unsympathetic things in most religions when you pull them from their contexts. Furthermore, verse 3:28 only tells that you shouldn\'t chose non-Muslim friends ABOVE Muslim friends.
Those people who have studied the history of militant Islam seem to agree on this, that the Sunni-extremist organisations we see today, like Al Qaeda, have taken their ideas and political views from the Wahhabism.
Yes, I didn\'t say they had a peaceful history, but neither have we. I only said that to understand Muslim culture and how Muslim people perceive themselves and the world around them you need to study their history. I mean, we study our own history and that helps us understand our own culture, but some people (I\'m not saying you do this) seem to think they can understand other cultures just by piecing together a couple of things they read in the papers. Their own internal wars, the crusades, colonisation, Napoleon\'s invasion of Egypt, the forming of Israel etc. etc. are all things that in various degrees have shaped the Islamic culture of today. If you HAVE studied their history, that\'s good. That\'s more than most people do...
hubbabubba
New member
I don\'t beleive that your average muslim is any different to your average christian, in that they go to church when they feel that have to, read their holy book once in a blue moon, and pray when they are worried, feel guilty or want something in return.
Has nobody mentioned yet that the reason the arabic world is so prickly towards the west is that our governments have been raping and exploiting their countries for the best part of a century if not more.
Cmon cmon, religion\'s just an excuse.
Has nobody mentioned yet that the reason the arabic world is so prickly towards the west is that our governments have been raping and exploiting their countries for the best part of a century if not more.
Cmon cmon, religion\'s just an excuse.
darthfoley
Active member
If, as you say, 9:5 meant only those with \'no treaty\', we could feel secure...if any treaty with Islam had ever meant anything in the first place. 9:5 in and of itself vacates any treaty that Islam ever had with any group in history. In the words of Ibn Kathir, 9:5 \'abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term\'. Never mind there\'s also a long history of Islamic treaties with non-Muslims being abandoned as soon as they were no longer viewed as useful. And yes, you can \'repent and be spared\'...convert to Islam...pay the tax...or die. Those are the three choices, laid out very clearly by the Prophet himself.
3:28 makes it clear that non-believers are not equal. \'Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers\' - you say it only tells them not to choose nonbelievers over believers...but what about, say, me over bin Laden? According to this text, a good Muslim should choose him over me simply because he\'s Muslim. That sounds ok to you? Because I believe that\'s exactly what most of the Muslim world is doing. Moreover, it says clearly \'If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them\'. In other words, make friends with nonbelievers only to strengthen yourself against them. Unless, of course, the \'believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly\' (Ibn Kathir again). In other words...lie about being a friend if it suits your purpose, but never actually BE a friend.
And I say that, since the Prophet himself declared Jihad the greatest of all services for Allah, that this \'extremist\' view is actually the truest version of Islam.
Ah, the Crusades. A whole \'nother can of worms.
And again, good debate. Thanks.
You chose, and so have plenty of Islamic politicans during the years, to interpret what is written in the most merciless way. The text is not that clear as you state. \"Tax\" is written as \"give to the poor\" or something like that. Giving to the poor is one of the four pillars of Islam, something every good person should do. The verse doesn\'t say \"convert\" either... but, I agree that it COULD be interpreted that way. Religious texts are often dubious that way. The text doesn\'t say that all treaties are void, just those with people who don\'t honour them. And, of course, you can probably point to any number of examples where Muslims have used this or other texts to validate their own actions, but that\'s not the point I\'m trying to make. My point is that you can\'t make sweeping statements of an entire people (or in this case several cultures who only have the religion in common), by pulling a few lines from their religious text out of their contexts.
Plenty of Muslims don\'t consider Bin Ladin a true Muslim, since his actions go against a lot of what their beliefs tell them.
My point here was that this verse, 3:28, don\'t go against what I wrote in my initial post. It doesn\'t tell Muslims to be enemies with non-Muslims. It doesn\'t tell them to disrespect other cultures and beliefs.This is not how most Muslims are interpreting it, thankfully.
And not one I\'m planning on opening...Originally posted by darthfoley
Ah, the Crusades. A whole \'nother can of worms.
I wasn\'t meaning to discuss finer details of Islamic belief here, only point out that it takes more to understand a people than a few lines from their religious text taken out of their context.
airhead
Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
Haven\'t been to a zoning board hearing lately?
Read the fine print in the deed to your home?
lots of \"..you may not....\"\'s in there.
Not everything you do in your home is so sacred. I really don\'t want my neighbors operating a meth lab in their home, or a compost plant, or a number of other things.
Aria Amberhawk
New member
Notice how those \"..you may not....\"\'s are not citing the word of god as the reason behind said rules and regulations....?
It appears you have taken my statement out of context in regards to the nature of the topic being discussed on this thread. Please accept my apologies if my words led you to believe otherwise.
Allow me to clarify my position... I will fight tooth and nail to be told how to live by any group or individual hijacking the legal system to enforce how I... or anyone else for that matter... should go about my business based solely upon what their version of god/religious dogma dictates we should live.
A example would be... let\'s say a group or individual of the Christian faith attempts to get their town to pass an ordinace prohibiting anyone from working on the Sabbath. Not gonna fly with me.
Or, if my bank inserts a clause into the deed of my home demanding that I say grace before every meal and to offer up a prayer to the deity of my choice before tucking myself into bed at night... I can promise you that my lawyer will be be entering the equation toot sweet. A silly example, but I think you see what I\'m getting at.
So... keeping this all in context... your response to my post has nothing to do with what I would \"fight tooth and nail against\". I\'m sorry... but unless the United States decides to toss out the Constitution and declare itself a theocracy, I have no use for the whims of a god I find no reason to believe exists hijacking my government.
darthfoley
Active member
Originally posted by Ritual
And not one I\'m planning on opening...
Probably wise, we\'d be here a while. lol
Well, I think the difference in our viewpoints is that I don\'t believe I am taking them out of context - I\'m taking them as they were written. And as you say, I could point out numerous situations where there are contradictions against what you say is peace loving Islam, and numerous tweaks in the text that actually make them sound less violent than they originally were.
But, I think we\'ve chased around the track enough.
:beer:darthfoley
Active member
You mean we haven\'t already? lol
fieldarchy
New member
yeah I\'ve heard bradford can be pretty bad. I\'m considering UofB for Archaeology Master\'s and PhD and I\'ve been warned about the surrounding town . . . doesn\'t sound pleasant
Aria Amberhawk
New member
Zing!
freakinacage
Well-known member
you\'re gonna be popping over to old blighty?
Roger Bunting
New member
May I suggest the University of Walton? There\'s lots of gardens, err, I mean, archaological sites to dig. You can start with the one that\'s only about 20\' away from this computer.
AinuLainour
New member
1 large coke and small popcorn, thanks.
darthfoley
Active member
Methinks thou doth protest too much.
I didn\'t mention any particular time period, person, or action that I feel is contrary to the Constitution.
squig hunter
New member
It occurs to me that religious texts are often written (or edited?) in such a fashion that religious leaders can twist them towards their own means. Just an observation:]
Squig
Squig
fieldarchy
New member
When it comes to politics Evil Dave definitely has an opinion. I\'ve been party to some very interesting debates with his evil twin.
Originally posted by darthfoley
Methinks thou doth protest too much.
I didn\'t mention any particular time period, person, or action that I feel is contrary to the Constitution.
Roger Bunting
New member
Evil Dave has an evil twin? Wouldn\'t the two evils cancel each other out or is the evil twin truly diabolical? lol
darthfoley
Active member
I\'m well aware. I even agree with him on occasion.
However, his penchant for starting his posts with things like \'I suggest\' or \'the thing is\' or \'y\'see...\' typically leads to me going into \'I\'m being preached at\' mode and shutting out whatever he might say.
