More School Violence - Newtown, Connecticut - 12/13/2012

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At least 27 dead at an elementary school. 18 of them children.
22 year old male shooter. Dead. Not sure how yet.

The people, the school, the town.....all scarred for life.

Breaks my heart and makes me want to turn in my membership card to the human race.....

I pray for little....I pray these senseless tragedies stop.

Remind me again.....why do we let people have guns ?
 

ktooloo

New member
"Remind me again.....why do we let people have guns ?" ???? Seriously?!?!?!?

This rhetorical question is ignorant and narrow minded. The tool used is not the issue, the mentally/emotionally disturbed 22yr old shooter is the issue. Someone like this would use any tool they could to inflict as much harm as they could.

I know that the number of deceased would be less if he had gone in with even just a knife, but this person would have found a way to inflict as much harm as they could regardless of what tool they used.

To comment more specifically on your issue with guns..... I do not own a gun, but I do believe in our 2nd Amendment right as much as I believe in all the others. As easily as you go to blame the guns, it could be argued that if every teacher was armed then there would have been far fewer dead. One could take this line of thought to an extreme and argue that if this city followed the example of a few (VERY few) towns and had a law requiring every adult to be armed (they'll loan you a gun if you're staying more than just an overnight stop), then this person would have found a far less tragic way to act out his problems.

Your comment quoted above make you sound just as ignorant as the folks that tried to blame Marilyn Manson or video games for the Columbine shooting.

If the part of Jersey you're from was effected by Sandy, I hope all is going as well as possible for you.


Take care!
 

crystella333

New member
Yet again, we are reminded of the senselessness that comes from one's person decision to inflict harm in anyway possible and to leave so many more unanswerable questions. There is no answer for this loss, just our hopes that something good will come from sad event. RIP all the lives lost :'(
 
Yes....SERIOUSLY !

Grow up. Guns kill people.
Access to guns by the YOUNG and/or UNSTABLE has been proven to have blistering consequence.

Entertaining your begging of the question for a moment.....
Ask any of the parents ( dead kids or not ) at that school if they would rather the lunatic showed up with a knife.

And the bit about the teachers having guns......get off the crack pipe. Do it now.
No guns in the hands of everyday people means just that.

And for some historical context....don't you think the world ( and guns themselves ) have changed
just a bit since the American Revolution ? Get a grip.....

Thanks for the bit about Sandy. I lost a work truck and some power for a while.
I was a lucky one.
 
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Bloodhowl

Active member
Yes....SERIOUSLY !

Grow up. Guns kill people.
Access to guns by the YOUNG and/or UNSTABLE has been proven to have blistering consequence.

Entertaining your begging of the question for a moment.....
Ask any of the parents ( dead kids or not ) at that school if they would rather the lunatic showed up with a knife.

And the bit about the teachers having guns......get off the crack pipe. Do it now.
No guns in the hands of everyday people means just that.

And for some historical context....don't you think the world ( and guns themselves ) have changed
just a bit since the American Revolution ? Get a grip.....

Thanks for the bit about Sandy. I lost a work truck and some power for a while.
I was a lucky one.


Riddle me this: if a family of 6 is killed by a drunk driver or someone texting on a cell phone, is the car or the phone to blame? More people are killed by IRRESPONSIBLE individuals in automobiles than by guns. Your logic of blaming the tool, not the individual is not just flawed, but wrong.

That same individual in Connecticut or any where else there were shootings could have just as easily made an IED from household materiials and done a Timothy McVeigh on a school, government building or crowded shopping center. But he didn't, he used a gun. Therefore guns must be banned? I thnk not.

Some where down the line leading up to his viloence, there were signs this individual was disturbed and people he interacted with on a daily basis noticed something was off, yet said or did nothing, allowing this individual to progress to the point he lashed out violently. It is the APATHY and attitude of people not wanting to get involved that leads to these tragedies, not the tools used to commit them.

The problem of people commiting acts of evil run deeper than the tools they use, and the solution is not to get rid of the tools. People wanting to do harm to themselves or others will always find a way unless people close to them are willing to take action.
 
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Didn't blame the "tool".

I observed that the availability of a powerful KILLING instrument to the wrong person has dire consequences.

By the way....an automobile IS a tool. It has a specific purpose.
When people die in auto accidents, for any reason, it is because the tool
has been misused...somehow...someway.

When someone creates a bomb, purposely, out of inert materials, that's a hardened choice.

When a gun kills someone. the "tool" is doing EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO.
I am ok with them having to find another weapon to do the damage.

The truly disturbed person looking to do maximum damage to selected targets needs time.
Nothing works better for this than guns. Period. PERIOD.

Ask yourself what options this kid, whatever his personal story is, would have had if he simply
did not have access to guns.

Could he have killed ? Yes.

Could he have killed 30 or more in a suburb before the police stopped him ? Duh.

Don't be stupid or naiive about this.
 
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Zilo

Member
Human nature is the problem. We are imperfect, we always will be. This is one of those facets. Tragedies will happen. We've endured massacres and senseless killings for ages and more are yet to come. We just need to count our blessings and move on. My heart goes out to the families of all the victims, there's little more we can do than this.
 

marjedi

New member
Another horrible shooting incident.

My condolences go out to the families hurt by this.

And again i am left ponderin why guns are still aloved in the amounts it is in the USA.

How many people have to die before the laws are changed.
 

mud duck

New member
Yes....SERIOUSLY !

Grow up. Guns kill people.
Access to guns by the YOUNG and/or UNSTABLE has been proven to have blistering consequence.

Really the only way that a gun kills someone is if someone beats that person to death with it. It's the bullet that kills. It's the carelessness/ inexperience/ stupidity of the person 'playing' with the gun that causes the hammer to fall, igniting the powder, causing the round to exit the weapon and enter the target. But your right, the young and unstable shouldn't have access guns; but do we know if the shooter was either?

Entertaining your begging of the question for a moment.....
Ask any of the parents ( dead kids or not ) at that school if they would rather the lunatic showed up with a knife.

I bet that they would have preferred neither! The problem with the idea of a knife is that one person (his Mother) would have died/ or gravely wounded and possibly more if the other teachers tried to stop him from leaving. Or say one of the other teachers hits the panic button and the school is locked down. Now you have a nut job with a classroom/school full of hostages that he may decide to "go out in a blaze of glory" and start killing, guns need bullets, a knife a strong will. Remember 911, box cutters and belief. Either way teachers, parents, and the students in the classroom and out would/will be traumatized.

And the bit about the teachers having guns......get off the crack pipe. Do it now.
No guns in the hands of everyday people means just that.

Look at Chicago and D.C., ban guns in the hands of RESPONSIBLE, LAW ABIDING, ADULTS, and an increase in the crime rate. As for the arming the Teachers, ask yourself this; why did he attack (his Mother) at school? No Gun Zone.

And for some historical context....don't you think the world ( and guns themselves ) have changed
just a bit since the American Revolution ? Get a grip.....

Yes, yes they have. The world on the other hand.....
Remember that the 2nd Amendment is in place to protect the People from the Government, and the by giving up that right we allow the Government to take more rights without an ability to stop them.

Thanks for the bit about Sandy. I lost a work truck and some power for a while.
I was a lucky one.

That's good to hear.
 

TrystanGST

New member
I'm with bloodhowl on this. It's a very unfortunate event, and people tend to overreact when tragedies occur. Look for more laws and legislature to be passed in the near future.

If the gun is to blame, and should be banned, then we must ban all alcohol, all drugs, all cell phones, and all cars. Because each of those things kill people, and accordingly the person using them is blameless.

The worst part about an event like this is that there is nothing that can really be done. Lives are lost, the responsible party is dead, and there's no real way to even find out why it happened. But knee-jerk reactions are bound to come back to bite us. See the Patriot Act and TSA.
 

Bloodhowl

Active member
22 at school in china attacked by man with knife. http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story

And per the article the same kind of attack happened back in 2010. China is a country which doesn't allow guns in their citizen's hands, and yet EVIL still happened.

Personally I think the degradation of personal morals and values and the increased technology that reduces the human day to day interaction are more of the root to the problem. People don't have the interpersonal skills anymore, and they no longer view people, as well, people. People are de-humanized. The way you train yourself to kill is to de-humanize your target. (Reference: On Killing by Lt. Col Dave Grossman).

I have a Kindergartner so this hits close to home. But I am also a responsible user of firearms both when I served in defense of my country, defense of foreign countries, and in my personal life. In a few more years I will train my kids in the proper use of firearms. If I am ever in the position to protect my loved ones or other people in harm's way from some deranged, EVIL lunatic(s), I vow the perpetrator of EVIL won't be going to trial to spend countless years on the taxpayer's dime in prison. Not on my watch. Oh, last thing, I hope there is a special place in hell set aside for the eternal torment of this evil-doer's soul.
 
"If the gun is to blame, and should be banned, then we must ban all alcohol, all drugs, all cell phones, and all cars. Because each of those things kill people, and accordingly the person using them is blameless."

Missing the point entirely.

One of these things is not like the other......

A gun has one simple function. It kills things.
 

Bloodhowl

Active member
A gun has one simple function. It kills things.

Again, you are missing the point. I have shot plenty of paper and steel targets. Nothing died. (Except the trees that made the paper for the targets, but the gun had nothing to do with that). I have also shot furry and feathered critters for food. The gun does not decide the target. The person pulling the trigger does. The function of the gun is decided by the person operating it.
 

TrystanGST

New member
"If the gun is to blame, and should be banned, then we must ban all alcohol, all drugs, all cell phones, and all cars. Because each of those things kill people, and accordingly the person using them is blameless."

Missing the point entirely.

One of these things is not like the other......

A gun has one simple function. It kills things.

And what beneficial purposes do drugs and alcohol serve? How about cigarettes?
 

me_in_japan

New member
I'm not American (and in some people's minds that invalidates any opinion I may have on the subject) but I am a human being, which I would hope allows me an opinion on the morality of gun laws, in the US or any other country. This is the first thread I've read on the subject of gun regulation, and one thing is immediately clear to me: people are not even entertaining any possibility of the other side being right. It would very much seem that people are responding to old arguments they've had with other people and are just carrying over the conclusions from those arguments. Again, as an outsider I can see validity in both sides, largely I suspect because I have no peronal interests either way. As I see it, it breaks down as follows:

Pro-gun ownership:
1) we have a right to bear arms under the constitution.
2) if we allow the government to take away our guns we lose our means of defending ourselves should a future government become unacceptably dictatorial.

Also, nobody has mentioned this, but personally I would add:
3) if the government of the US ever really tried to impose a national ban on guns there would be a second American civil war.

Anti-gun ownership.
1) guns are for killing people. They cannot be compared to cars or other tools, as if used as intended these items are a safe and productive part of modern life.
2) guns are not the only way to kill people, but they do make it a helluva lot easier.

When you break it down like that (and I appreciate it's a pretty simplistic sketch of the situation) it seems to boil down to

Pro-guns : complex hypothetical reasons
anti-guns : simple practical reasons.

Here is a rather interesting wee chart I found. Feel free to interpret as you see fit :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...true&sortcolid=6&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250
 
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Bloodhowl

Active member
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Bloodhowl

Active member
A fellow Marine's take on today's events:

"Everybody is looking for leadership to prevent today's actions from happening again. The only thing that will prevent evil from coming through the door are men who won't let it happen. Rules, laws and limitations on man only allow the evil man freedom of movement. One man in the right place at the right time will always make the difference when that right man is armed and ready."

Amen.
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sadly the direction of this thread had derailed into a political discussion about the pro's and con's of owning firearms.

To both cfwheeler58 and Bloodhowl while I like and respect you both I think you should both be ashamed to start a political argument when the consideration should be about the Shared Sorrow of Wasted Human Life.
Nothing can bring back the murdered children and it should be to those parents where our consideration, sorrow and sympathy should be directed.
Everyone of those parents will be going through the agonies of HELL right now, so be HUMANE in your discussions.
 

Bloodhowl

Active member
Sadly the direction of this thread had derailed into a political discussion about the pro's and con's of owning firearms.

To both cfwheeler58 and Bloodhowl while I like and respect you both I think you should both be ashamed to start a political argument when the consideration should be about the Shared Sorrow of Wasted Human Life.
Nothing can bring back the murdered children and it should be to those parents where our consideration, sorrow and sympathy should be directed.
Everyone of those parents will be going through the agonies of HELL right now, so be HUMANE in your discussions.

Amen. I apologize. My prayers go out to the families of those lost.
 
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