Newest Commission- Improvements and Suggestions?

[NewEvolutionGames]

Slugging away at another Confrontation Commission. Here is the latest one that I have finished. Anyone give me any suggestions on how I can improve? I'm still working on higher quality. Overall the figure was painted in two days, maybe 2 hours or so each day. Not alot of crazy details on this one. I'm using my homemade wet pallette, but still stuck on some of my old drybrushing techniques. It's very difficult for me to apply such thin layers of paint, but the skin does have about 8 or so differnt highlights on it. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have.

 

[MAXXxxx]

what I see first, is that the paint still looks thick. Especially on the shoulders (could be from something else, but there it looks too grainy to me).

metals: I'd do a bit more shading with a dark color (even with black) to better bring out the definitions. they look good imho, if they go from almost pure black through the chosen metal color(boltgun) up to a really bright metal(silver).
clothes: be more daring, make the highlights stronger, much much stronger. Right now the cloth looks like it was based with a dark-green, then shaded with black. When highlighting the folds you could go as high as a greenish-yellow or greenish-grey (scorpion green/dead flesh)

skin: you wrote, that you used 8 different HLs on it. Sorry, but from the pictures it looks like a base+wash+1HL.
Also the grainy things in the shadow areas, that comes from drybrushing I think --> here you could get rid of them / make the shadows stronger by applying a controlled wash.

It won't give a really good transition, but I'd give a try to this for flesh (not necessarily on this figure, but on the next):
- paint it a chosen flesh color (do more layers, until homogenous)
- paint the bottom cca. 25% of each muscle group with a darker flesh color or a mix of the base + reddish brown (beasty brown) OR do a wash with a dark brown color
- if you chose the wash, then repaint the outstanding parts with the base color (correcting any spilling mistakes)
- paint the top cca 25% with a lighter color or with a mix of the base + white
- paint the top 25% of the previous layer with an even lighter color (or add more white to the previous mix)
The result is normally a clean layered painting with highlights and such, but noticeable lines between the layers. From a gaming distance it will look good though.

To get rid of those you'd need to do more mixes between the layers or learn new techinques (for example feathering / working with transparent paints). But that will up the time spent painting one figure tremendously.


of course a few questions, depending on those I'd simply stay at the look on the pictures, use what I wrote or use something more advanced (you don't need to answer here, they are for you to decide if you want to push further or stay at the level where you are):
- does the commission requires you to go beyond the quality shown?
- do you get payed enough to work twice as much or more ?
- do you want to get better and better independent of payment/requirement ?

 

[Hasdrubal]

It's all starting with the type of service you're providing, the level of detail, and the price associated. 4 hours for a miniature isn't a large amount of time but, at the same time, you can achieve a lot with the right techniques.

As a general rule, drybrushing and smooth surfaces don't go well with each other, so it's gonna be difficult to achieve to good result when drybrushing. As MAXXXxxx pointed out, often often ends up with thick paint and a grainy look.
Controlled washes are an alternate solution ; the idea being to start from a light/white undercoat, and apply several layer of washes to tint and darkness areas. For instance, you'd start by a light bone color wash on all flesh areas, then apply darker washes in areas receiving less light and recesses, typically 3-5 washes. Flow enhancer really helps, as it'll allow you to reduce surface tension and thus guide washes in areas where you want to apply them, while avoiding pooling. The idea is to progressively darker areas instead of drowning them in wash.

Metals can be treated in many different ways, depedning no the effect you want to achieve. If going for a rusted and worn effect, drybrushing Boltgun Metal or the like over a rust base then wasing it nets you decent results in a limited time.

All in all, time spent grows exponentially with the quality of painting achieved. Some tolls and techniques allows you to work faster once you handle them, but it takes trial and errors to get there - ot something to try on a commission piece!

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

MAXXXxxx: The paint isn't thick, I simply jumped to too stark of a highlight and it makes it noticable. I guess I should have stated that the commission is for Tabletop standard. The up close picture doesn't do the mini justice. It looks very nice at arms length or on the table. The clothing is very dark in the pic. It has a dark green base and is highlighted up to a medium olive/bone mix of 50/50.

The flesh did turn out a little "chalky" for lack of a better term. I'm looking to improve that. I applied a wash of my midtone and that toned down the graininess a little. I'll look into the technique you recommended on my next piece. One issue I have is that after all my years of painting, I don't want to put down the washes. I take a good base color, highlight it up with light coats, then I think "This needs some deaper shadows", I hit the whole thing with a watered down Skin Wash and go back about 5 steps. Highlight back up and gain some graininess. I think I'll post so pics of my flesh pre-wash next time and see what everyone thinks. I may not need the wash at all. Didn't use a wash on the clothes and I'm not bothered by it, hmmm.

Overall, my questions are simply for self improvement. I am constantly trying to up my skills, just not making the gains I would like to see. I have done several commissions for this individual and he says every batch is better than the last. I only have one standard that I paint to though, my standard. All my commissions are done to the best of my ability.

Hasdrubal: Thanks for the comments. I usually go the opposite route with my painting, start with a dark base tone and work my way up. I have been using alot of single colors mixed with bone white lately, but deviated from that for this flesh.

I have ADHD and will freely admit that I will forever strive to be a Golden Demon level painter, but not want to invest more than a couple hours into each model. I know it's not a reasonable goal, but I know myself as well. I just want to paint a nice product, either for myself or for commissions. If I'm happy or the customer is happy, it's good. I however strive to improve. I used a blue wash on the steel, but may have been a little heay handed with the highlights. I'll have to look at the model again and see if it needs fixed. Also need to work on photog skills to make these better represent reality.

Thanks for the comments, I'll look into the suggestions and see how I can apply them. I'll post some new stuff in a few days and you all can let me know if the are improvements.

 

[RuneBrush]

The flesh did turn out a little "chalky" for lack of a better term. I'm looking to improve that. I applied a wash of my midtone and that toned down the graininess a little. I'll look into the technique you recommended on my next piece. One issue I have is that after all my years of painting, I don't want to put down the washes. I take a good base color, highlight it up with light coats, then I think "This needs some deaper shadows", I hit the whole thing with a watered down Skin Wash and go back about 5 steps. Highlight back up and gain some graininess. I think I'll post so pics of my flesh pre-wash next time and see what everyone thinks. I may not need the wash at all. Didn't use a wash on the clothes and I'm not bothered by it, hmmm.
Overall, my questions are simply for self improvement. I am constantly trying to up my skills, just not making the gains I would like to see. I have done several commissions for this individual and he says every batch is better than the last. I only have one standard that I paint to though, my standard. All my commissions are done to the best of my ability.

Hasdrubal: Thanks for the comments. I usually go the opposite route with my painting, start with a dark base tone and work my way up. I have been using alot of single colors mixed with bone white lately, but deviated from that for this flesh.

I have ADHD and will freely admit that I will forever strive to be a Golden Demon level painter, but not want to invest more than a couple hours into each model. I know it's not a reasonable goal, but I know myself as well. I just want to paint a nice product, either for myself or for commissions. If I'm happy or the customer is happy, it's good. I however strive to improve. I used a blue wash on the steel, but may have been a little heay handed with the highlights. I'll have to look at the model again and see if it needs fixed. Also need to work on photog skills to make these better represent reality.

Thanks for the comments, I'll look into the suggestions and see how I can apply them. I'll post some new stuff in a few days and you all can let me know if the are improvements.

One thing I'm going to say, is that there isn't a right or wrong way to paint a mini, however you will likely want to vary your steps depending upon what you're painting. Going from the a dark base colour up to the highlight is the technique I use for marines and it works very well (at least for me). For flesh though I paint the main base colour, shade with a shadow colour and then highlight up (with a brush, not drybrushed). This gives me a much cleaner flesh colour. It's also very rare that I'll wash the whole of a mini with a wash colour, if I want a particular bit of a mini shaded, then I'll shade that particular area (as said above "selective washing"). The main thing that strikes me with your technique is you need more "control", I don't mean this in a negative way more that you need to control what you're doing specifically to the element you're painting - and by that consider "arm bicep" an element rather than "flesh".


One tip I do have is to treat yourself to the new GW painting book. This comes with a DVD that is quite useful to see the various techniques, and actually explains them quite well. This should give you the basic to achieve a good tabletop standard and a really good foundation to build on - which I don't doubt you will

Looking forward to seeing WIP's being put up of your work!

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

Runebrush, I used to paint my flesh in the same way, then I went to paint, highlight, wash, re-highlight. The wash was to blend my drybrush together. I took a shot at another piece tonight working on the flesh. Base Toned with Tanned Flesh, Vallejo Skin wash, Tanned Flesh, Tanned Flesh/Bone White 4:1, Tanned Flesh/Bone White 2:1, Tanned Flesh/Bone White 1:1, Tanned Flesh/Bone White 1:2. I think the transition is much smoother. Too me, it looks like a more natural Skin tone, my wife says it's too dark compared to the others. Luckily, he's a Druid so he works outside alot. I tried to focus my paint a little more on the outer regions giving it a more natural highlight. I think it turned out really well. I'll see if I can post pics tomorrow.

I wasn't aware the new GW book had a DVD. I tend to use the internet for most of my techniques as it is free and my hobby budget is non-existent. I have had plans to start a Blog/WIP site chronicling my work as a motivator to keep the paint moving. My ADHD kicks in and knocks me off painting for weeks or months at a time if I don't have commissions that need done. I'd love for my struggle to help others work through their own issues and find a happy medium.

Thanks for the advice, I'll post pics soon.

 

[MAXXxxx]

One tip I do have is to treat yourself to the new GW painting book. This comes with a DVD that is quite useful to see the various techniques, and actually explains them quite well.

I wouldn't say that. Only watched the DVD and it's the worst I've seen until now.
Basically it's a product catalog for the new paintline. And what they show.... serious misteachings (like showing how to empty a whole spray-bottle on 1 figure, or when they showed the GW-palette: take out a blob of paint, water it down a bit, wash the brush out, dip it again, so it's fully loaded, approach mini with dripping brush)

The best video I've seen so far, that tackles beginner's techniques is the PrivateerPress Video. It's simply fun to watch even if there no no more to learn.
Othervise for tutorial vids with more advanced techniques I highly recomment the following: JBT, Hot-Lead, Figurines-tv-1, JenniferHaley vids(both CMON and Darksword). All 4(5 actually) are worth their price.

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

Ok, the debate continues with my wife over the tanned version. I think it looks better, more natural, she thinks he needs to be lighter like the first picture. The transitions seem alot smoother following the procedure I outlined in my last post. I applied a watered down mid-tone wash to smooth out some of the graininess, still a little visible in the picture. Let me know what your opinions are.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Runebrush, I used to paint my flesh in the same way, then I went to paint, highlight, wash, re-highlight. The wash was to blend my drybrush together.

Ok, the debate continues with my wife over the tanned version. I think it looks better, more natural, she thinks he needs to be lighter like the first picture. The transitions seem alot smoother following the procedure I outlined in my last post. I applied a watered down mid-tone wash to smooth out some of the graininess, still a little visible in the picture. Let me know what your opinions are.

1 Stop Damn Drybrushing!
2 Use the correct brush size for basecoating the skin ie size 1 or 2, multiple thin coats are easily dried using an el cheapo hairdrier.
3 Control the placement of paint.
4 Start the skin tone with a mid tone
5 Use a dilute darker tone PLACED into the areas where the skin will shadow, Do NOT wash over the whole model.
6 Tidy up any slip ups from the darker tone with the original skin tone.
7 Start working up the highlights using an old adage of the highlight should be 80% of the size of the previous level of paint
8 Areas where skin abuts against clothing, jewellery or belts going over the skin should be emphasised with a darker tone (called a darklining) doesn't have to be black or dark brown just slightly darker than your shadows.

Personally I think you are the kind of person who would benefit from an afternoon sat alongside a reasonable painter demonstrating techniques rather than watching videos, especially what I've seen of the GW one.

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

I do learn alot better sitting watching others. I tend to get the gist of tutorials and then apply my bad habits to them. I did another flesh job. Started with a mid-tone, washed in the shadows and highlighted using 5 or six tones added more and more bone white with each successive tone. The wife approved of this one. I think it looks much cleaner as well. Alot less grainy. I'll see if I can get a pic posted soon.

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

New attempt, lighter tone. Still not going for Golden Demon level here, just upping my game a little. Let me know what you think.

Is there improvement or just a different technique that still doesn't cut it? Let me know, I like the last one the best so far.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Being honest there is no visible difference between the previous picture and the newest one.
Your highlight range is lost, in 28mm scale painting Contrast is everything.
View attachment 15333

This is a 10 minute photoshop tweak where I've basically increased the highlight points to the level you should be seeing on your figures.
I've strengthened the shadow areas by judicious placement of increased shadow area depth not just an overall wash.
In that I've used a purple tone and a green which holds the skin tone variation.

As I've said contrast in 28mm painting is everything and one of the best examples of skintone I can give you is
http://www.coolminiornot.com/308665?browseid=2565886
That's use of shadow placement and highlights.

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

I can see what you are saying. In my quest for smooth transitions, I have lost some of the contrast. I highlighted the Tan druid up quite a bit more since the picture and wrapped him up. I'll probably stop experimenting with this commission as it will already look like two different people painted it. After this commission, I'm starting a small Skaven force from the IoB set. I'll post a WIP thread for that project and see what feedback I get.

 

[Hasdrubal]

Smotthness + high contrast takes lot of skills and lots of time. If doing tabletop stuff, you can afford rougher transitions but higher contrast. It it looks flat held from arm's length, go for more contrast. Don't forget the distance between the table and the eye will smooth some of the color transition out. I also recall a NMM tutorial from msterbenz that should help you getting more contrast. To sum it up, his advice was to lay the base, place highlights and shadows, and then smooth out the transition by adding intermediate layers made from a mix of Base+Highlight or Base+Shadow.

Another technique you might try is to paint from dark to light, i.e. starting by basecoating an area with the shadow, then lighting it up progressively by layering lighter colors as you move up the highlight points indicated by Dragonsreach.

Don't be afraid to experiment new new techniques. Another trick to understand light placement is basecoat the mini, then mist it with white primer from the top, at a 90 degree angle. White area are your light points, then can then refine the lights as you want.

 

[RuneBrush]

I wouldn't say that. Only watched the DVD and it's the worst I've seen until now.
Basically it's a product catalog for the new paintline. And what they show.... serious misteachings (like showing how to empty a whole spray-bottle on 1 figure, or when they showed the GW-palette: take out a blob of paint, water it down a bit, wash the brush out, dip it again, so it's fully loaded, approach mini with dripping brush)

That's why it's a good starting point and not an authoritative "how to paint". Once you've grasped the basic concepts then you need to refine/replace using techniques from other sources (here, MM videos, etc). My other half got back into painting a few months back (last time she painted was in the early 90's) and I feel that after watching the GW dvd she actually absorbed better techniques - in fairness I did comment throughout the whole dvd and she started out with some decent brushes etc.

The best video I've seen so far, that tackles beginner's techniques is the PrivateerPress Video. It's simply fun to watch even if there no no more to learn.
Othervise for tutorial vids with more advanced techniques I highly recomment the following: JBT, Hot-Lead, Figurines-tv-1, JenniferHaley vids(both CMON and Darksword). All 4(5 actually) are worth their price.

In fairness I've not see the PP video (will have to hunt that out). The miniature mentor videos are not too bad if you're specific with the ones you watch (a lot of repetition on some of the earlier ones).

1 Stop Damn Drybrushing!

+1 when I was saying how I currently paint flesh I don't drybrush at all

 

[NewEvolutionGames]

Don't forget the distance between the table and the eye will smooth some of the color transition out. I also recall a NMM tutorial from msterbenz that should help you getting more contrast.

This is the most frustrating part for me. The model looks great at arm's length, then I take pictures and I feel like I'm showing off my crayon drawing to professional artists. This commission is tabletop, but I would love to ultimately get to the level where I could compete in painting competitions.

I lied in my last post as well. I went back and washed in shadows and rehighlighted a little bit. Does "pop" on the tabletop a bit more, but my transitions are not as smooth as I would like. I'll keep practicing. I do a commission for this guy every couple months so I'll have lots of opportunity. He likes that each job looks better and better.

I have been working on toning back my drybrushing. More purposeful application of paint. I'll keep working on it.

 

[terroroy]

when i first got into painting around the age of 7 i used to watch my neighbour paint all time and thought that when he drybrushed it was an awesome technique that really showed up detail. I stopped painting at 15 and only picked up a brush again about 4 years ago after being blown away by new sculpts and techiques. (am turning 35 this year) in all of the new work i have done drybrushing does not feature at all as the painters that i wish to emulate simply don't do it.

i empathise with your dilemma of having ADHD as it takes me about three months of sessions where i pick up a model for 2 hours, fire up the ps3, go look at shiny things forget about model, come back to it a week later etc. but i try to focus on only one colour concept (doing armour, skin, or material) during a session and use layering techniques and washes only. As a result i have been much happier with my progress. give it a shot as painting will take time if you wish to improve!

 

[MAXXxxx]

That's why it's a good starting point and not an authoritative "how to paint". Once you've grasped the basic concepts then you need to refine/replace using techniques from other sources (here, MM videos, etc). My other half got back into painting a few months back (last time she painted was in the early 90's) and I feel that after watching the GW dvd she actually absorbed better techniques - in fairness I did comment throughout the whole dvd and she started out with some decent brushes etc.

I don't know, as I was watching it I felt, that I'm being misteached. Quite a lot went against everything other tutorials teach.
There are parts, where I felt, that the painter could do his job much better and that there is a much easier way to do what he shows, but was instructed to do what the higher-ups want to sell.

In fairness I've not see the PP video (will have to hunt that out). The miniature mentor videos are not too bad if you're specific with the ones you watch (a lot of repetition on some of the earlier ones).

MiniatureMentor videos are great, but they are for those who already know all the basic and intermediate techniques and are getting good with advanced ones, but need a tip or two to get even better.
Not the best comparison, but: it's for those, who have entered a GD, were finalists, but need the little extra to push to a prize.

 

[MonkeyBone]

what I see first, is that the paint still looks thick. Especially on the shoulders (could be from something else, but there it looks too grainy to me).

metals: I'd do a bit more shading with a dark color (even with black) to better bring out the definitions. they look good imho, if they go from almost pure black through the chosen metal color(boltgun) up to a really bright metal(silver).
clothes: be more daring, make the highlights stronger, much much stronger. Right now the cloth looks like it was based with a dark-green, then shaded with black. When highlighting the folds you could go as high as a greenish-yellow or greenish-grey (scorpion green/dead flesh)

skin: you wrote, that you used 8 different HLs on it. Sorry, but from the pictures it looks like a base+wash+1HL.
Also the grainy things in the shadow areas, that comes from drybrushing I think --> here you could get rid of them / make the shadows stronger by applying a controlled wash.

It won't give a really good transition, but I'd give a try to this for flesh (not necessarily on this figure, but on the next):
- paint it a chosen flesh color (do more layers, until homogenous)
- paint the bottom cca. 25% of each muscle group with a darker flesh color or a mix of the base + reddish brown (beasty brown) OR do a wash with a dark brown color
- if you chose the wash, then repaint the outstanding parts with the base color (correcting any spilling mistakes)
- paint the top cca 25% with a lighter color or with a mix of the base + white
- paint the top 25% of the previous layer with an even lighter color (or add more white to the previous mix)
The result is normally a clean layered painting with highlights and such, but noticeable lines between the layers. From a gaming distance it will look good though.

To get rid of those you'd need to do more mixes between the layers or learn new techinques (for example feathering / working with transparent paints). But that will up the time spent painting one figure tremendously.


of course a few questions, depending on those I'd simply stay at the look on the pictures, use what I wrote or use something more advanced (you don't need to answer here, they are for you to decide if you want to push further or stay at the level where you are):
- does the commission requires you to go beyond the quality shown?
- do you get payed enough to work twice as much or more ?
- do you want to get better and better independent of payment/requirement ?

I would have to agree: paint=too think, which is leaving your details grainy
shading/highlighting=needs to be more of it, giving more emphesis to the details.
even if you were to use some drybrushing on the hair and mane to give it some details.....