Nights Watch ?'s

[TheRedGod]

Passing along a few Nights Watch related questions from players....


-If Jeor NCU moves Donals Defensive Formation to another unit with his claim ability from unit A to B, when does it wear off? When A activates as initial target or B since its the one holding it?

-When Jon sitting in rangers with swift strike and quickfire dies and the 'it shall not end' card is played on him, can he melee, run and shoot before he dies anyway since the melee did not kill the defender? (know its a long shot, still better to clarify) In other words, is "after an attack is completed" part of the attack steps (thus swift strike within the melee attack window), page 17 includes the step as part of attack resolution ?

-How does senior builder overwatch work on a scorpion (can i trigger it whenever a unit ends in my 12'' or it needs to be in my frontal arc of sight) ??

-If the active player plays Take the Black, and the non-active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die or uses Order To The Last!, does it cancel the effect of Take the Black by invalidating the trigger? If not, does the enemy attachment still get moved/stolen into the Nights Watch unit?


- If the active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die or uses Order To The Last!, and the non-active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die, does it cancel the effect of Take The Black by invalidating the trigger?

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

-If Jeor NCU moves Donals Defensive Formation to another unit with his claim ability from unit A to B, when does it wear off? When A activates as initial target or B since its the one holding it?

The effect of Defensive Formation would check the unit it is attached to. Eg, it would be removed when the newly attached unit Activates.

-When Jon sitting in rangers with swift strike and quickfire dies and the 'it shall not end' card is played on him, can he melee, run and shoot before he dies anyway since the melee did not kill the defender? (know its a long shot, still better to clarify) In other words, is "after an attack is completed" part of the attack steps (thus swift strike within the melee attack window), page 17 includes the step as part of attack resolution ?

Jon's unit is removed as soon as the effect of It Shall Not End is resolved, which is directly after the Melee Attack it generates.

-How does senior builder overwatch work on a scorpion (can i trigger it whenever a unit ends in my 12'' or it needs to be in my frontal arc of sight) ??

The trigger for "Overwatch" is an enemy in Long Range. Nothing modifies the need to need this trigger to utilize the effect (eg, the capabilities of the unit, its attack, or any other variable do not matter, the trigger is still the trigger).

-If the active player plays Take the Black, and the non-active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die or uses Order To The Last!, does it cancel the effect of Take the Black by invalidating the trigger? If not, does the enemy attachment still get moved/stolen into the Nights Watch unit?

Take the Black triggers upon destruction of the unit. What is Dead May Never Die and Order: To The Last both trigger "When the unit would be destroyed", which is before finalization of destruction (eg, the trigger for Take the Black).

- If the active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die or uses Order To The Last!, and the non-active player plays What Is Dead May Never Die, does it cancel the effect of Take The Black by invalidating the trigger?

As stated above, the trigger timing for both of these effects is before the trigger timing for Take the Black. Each of these would be utilized before Take the Black can be played legally.

 

[TheoPL]

Thanks, just a follow-up for the scorpion question wih the senior builder: order can be used in Long Range AND in Line of Sight. The question is - is it just Front Arc of the scorpion or does the innate ability that lets player to draw LoS from any point of the tray takes place. So:

- You need target to be in front arc to draw LoS from there and in Long Range
or
- LoS from any point is always active and the only thing to care about is the Long Range

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

Thanks, just a follow-up for the scorpion question wih the senior builder: order can be used in Long Range AND in Line of Sight. The question is - is it just Front Arc of the scorpion or does the innate ability that lets player to draw LoS from any point of the tray takes place. So:

- You need target to be in front arc to draw LoS from there and in Long Range
or
- LoS from any point is always active and the only thing to care about is the Long Range

Long Range is a stipulation entirely based around the trigger of the Overwatch Ability- it does not interact with anything else. It is exactly what it is written as. Line of Sight, however, by definition, is based on the unit and what they can and cannot see. Eg, in the case of Scorpion and Overwatch it can draw LoS from any part of its base, so it fulfills that demand of the Overwatch trigger (which is different than being able to shoot beyond Long Range and having a trigger that demands the unit be in Long Range).

 

[Spleen]

Line of Sight, however, by definition, is based on the unit and what they can and cannot see. Eg, in the case of Scorpion and Overwatch it can draw LoS from any part of its base, so it fulfills that demand of the Overwatch trigger (which is different than being able to shoot beyond Long Range and having a trigger that demands the unit be in Long Range).

Would the same also then be true of Stark Bowmen with Crannog Warden, can they trigger Overwatch on targets otherwise hidden by terrain or units because their arrow volley rule says it ignores those things when determining Line of Sight?

Would the same apply to Rodrik Cassel Commander's mark target order?

 

[JahSper]

Sorry guys, but Scorpion (and, in a way, Stark Bowmen) ignores LoS WHEN MAKING A RANGED ATTACK, for everything else they don't.
So, why would they trigger Overwatch? They don't ignore the rule of LoS per se, but only when declaring an attack.
Therefore, if they don't have LoS on the unit that has moved/marched, they cannot shoot because they don't meet the requested trigger (having a LoS). The exception on not having a LoS triggers at the moment when the ranged attack is declared, because it is part of the attack ability (not the unit).
This is how both cards are written (RAW). If creators intended something different (RAI), I don't know.

 

[TheRedGod]

Sorry guys, but Scorpion (and, in a way, Stark Bowmen) ignores LoS WHEN MAKING A RANGED ATTACK, for everything else they don't.
So, why would they trigger Overwatch? They don't ignore the rule of LoS per se, but only when declaring an attack.
Therefore, if they don't have LoS on the unit that has moved/marched, they cannot shoot because they don't meet the requested trigger (having a LoS). The exception on not having a LoS triggers at the moment when the ranged attack is declared, because it is part of the attack ability (not the unit).
This is how both cards are written (RAW). If creators intended something different (RAI), I don't know.

I'm not sure if you just missed the creators response entirely? It is above. ^^^ If you saw it and still posted, perhaps asking another question in a new thread would help your situation more. this thread has been completed, since its original question has been officially answered. Adding to the thread that the official is wrong doesnt really do anything, except have a chance at said official not wanting to come and interact on the forums as much. If you started a new thread posing the question about Line of Sight special rules in attack ability slots counting for that units Line of Sight ability all the time, then you could begin a basis for reversing the answer here.

 

[JahSper]

I'm not sure if you just missed the creators response entirely? It is above. ^^^ If you saw it and still posted, perhaps asking another question in a new thread would help your situation more. this thread has been completed, since its original question has been officially answered. Adding to the thread that the official is wrong doesnt really do anything, except have a chance at said official not wanting to come and interact on the forums as much. If you started a new thread posing the question about Line of Sight special rules in attack ability slots counting for that units Line of Sight ability all the time, then you could begin a basis for reversing the answer here.

Yeah, actually I have read that, but it doesn't make any sense. That's not the rule. There isn't even the necessity of asking how the Line of Sight works because it is extremely clear: rulebook 2021 says "line of Sight is drawn by the front arc".

If they want to make it work differently, they MUST write the rule accordingly.

RAW Scorpion can measure range and LoS from any point WHEN declaring the Bolt Thrower attack. Not for everything. As well as Stark Bowmen can ignore units and terrains WHEN declaring the attack, not for everything else.

However, I see your point and I perfectly understand it. But when someone who is supposed to know the rules gives this kind of "interpretation" I really can't understand how it is possible.

We have always been told to apply rules as written and now what?

 

[TheBatman]

This answer implies that abilities listed under the attack icons are not exclusive to being only applied for attacks, is this correct? Using the same reasoning as the tracing line of sight from any part of the tray applying outside of attacks does the Scorpion not also have viscous in melee as nothing ties it to a ranged attack?

 

[TheBatman]

And if not all abilities listed under attack icons don't exclusively apply for the attack then is there a rule of thumb we can go by to tell if a certain attack abilities only apply to the attack if others don't(like scorpions being able to trace line of sight from any part of their tray for purposes other than attacking)?

 

[Ashez73]

JahSper :No it makes perfect sense, manual says bow and sword icon are „TIED” to respective attacks.

[FONT=&quot]So while asking if the trigger is met the asnwer should be 'yes, because the order is about ranged attack, and in case of ranged attack they trace los from any part of tray'[/FONT]

 

[Hecaton]

Sorry guys, but Scorpion (and, in a way, Stark Bowmen) ignores LoS WHEN MAKING A RANGED ATTACK, for everything else they don't.

Still waiting for someone to say anything in the face of this lol

 

[JahSper]

JahSper :No it makes perfect sense, manual says bow and sword icon are „TIED” to respective attacks.

[FONT=&quot]So while asking if the trigger is met the asnwer should be 'yes, because the order is about ranged attack, and in case of ranged attack they trace los from any part of tray'[/FONT]

It's not like that, actually. Overwatch isn't a ranged attack, but an order.

As The Batman wrote:

This answer implies that abilities listed under the attack icons are not exclusive to being only applied for attacks,

And this is something different from eveything else we have ever seen.

I have read Michael Shinall answer, but he answered in a way that doesn't comply with the rules he and his team have written. They probably wanted to intend this differently (according to his answer), but what TheBatman has written is correct.

Besides, as TheBatman said, this would imply other problems, such as:

Using the same reasoning as the tracing line of sight from any part of the tray applying outside of attacks does the Scorpion not also have Vicous in melee as nothing ties it to a ranged attack?

Still waiting for someone to say anything in the face of this lol

I'd love to see someone giving a proper answer to this, giving reasons to it (which could simply be: "Sorry, we have written this badly, we wanted to intend it like this", I would gladly accept that!). Because if they wanted to make it like this, the part saying "Measures Range and Line of Sight from any part of this unit's tray" should have been written under the "War Machine" rule (considering it also applies to the Stone Thrower) and not under the "Bolt Thrower" rule (which is only for Ranged Attack, see the icon).

Moreover, if we apply this interpretation we also have other problems, such as:

Would the same also then be true of Stark Bowmen with Crannog Warden, can they trigger Overwatch on targets otherwise hidden by terrain or units because their arrow volley rule says it ignores those things when determining Line of Sight?

So I assume this would apply to Stark Bowmen too (according to Michael Shinall answer I don't see why not).

Would the same apply to Rodrik Cassel Commander's mark target order?

But if the rules written inside the attack box apply outside the attack, there is also this kind of problem.

I believe this answer has created quite a big confusion, because it went against a core rule.